Author Topic: Art Activation (Read 5555 times)

adotson85 · « **on:** January 16, 2012, 01:07:57 AM »

I start my draw phase by drawing 3, then deactivate my current artifact, play a territory class enhancement and then activate a different artifact, is this allowed?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #1 on:** January 16, 2012, 01:09:35 AM »

No. The act of choosing what artifacts you want active where all happen at the same time.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #2 on:** January 16, 2012, 01:50:58 AM »

Perfectly Legal.

It's late so I'll write up a more detailed response as to why its legal in the morning - But I'm fairly certain that it is.

adotson85 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:00:03 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 16, 2012, 01:50:58 AM

Perfectly Legal.

It's late so I'll write up a more detailed response as to why its legal in the morning - But I'm fairly certain that it is.

This is my thinking too. The reason being is that arts deactivate at the start of each owner's turn. The art deactivates after i draw and according to game rules I can activate arts and play territory class enhancements during my prep phase in no particular order.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:14:43 AM »

Unfortunately, I don't think that is correct. This partly because this is an area of the rules that is still not clearly defined (last I heard).

I know that you can't deactivate an artifact, play a card, and then reactivate the same artifact that turn (rulings on Lampstand). Your description would leave an opening to play evil Doms and no such window exists if Lampstand is up last turn and this turn.

RDT may be correct because the ruling may be different if it is a different artifact.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2012, 07:17:57 AM »

Galadgawyn is correct in regards to activating the same artifact - However Adotson spelled out my logic for its legality perfectly. It is a different case for activating a different artifact.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2012, 09:27:12 AM »

Deactivating an artifact means that you are choosing to have no artifact active that turn.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2012, 11:16:56 AM »

So in theory, there's nothing stopping me from deactivating Lampstand, playing a couple evil doms, then activating a different copy of Lampstand?

Gabe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2012, 11:30:52 AM »

SomeKittens and galadgawyn are correct. This ruling has been around since LotS was released.

The reason for the LotS ruling is that you have one opportunity to active an Artifact on your Artifact pile during your prep phase, regardless of whether or not it's the same Artifact you had active last turn. Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play.

Artifacts do not automatically "turn off" at the start of your turn, or the start of your prep phase. The Artifact on your Artifact pile remains active during the prep phase until you decide to deactivate it or leave it active for another round.

This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2012, 11:52:10 AM »

Quote

Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play. ......

This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

The rules don't technically say that you can choose to just deactivate an artifact, do they? (everyone plays as though you can) I remember that being discussed but I don't remember if that was officially added as an option. Similarly, can you choose to just deactivate an artifact being held on a fortress?

I remember there being such a big deal made about the Lampstand situation but your post made me wonder if there was a legal option all along - you switch your artifact pile from Lampstand to Bronze Laver, play a bunch of evil Doms, and then activate Lampstand on your temple. Why would that not be allowed? and if it is then I don't understand the big debates about Lampstand.

TimMierz · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2012, 12:11:04 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on January 16, 2012, 11:52:10 AM

The rules don't technically say that you can choose to just deactivate an artifact, do they? (everyone plays as though you can) I remember that being discussed but I don't remember if that was officially added as an option.

Rulebook, Diagram of a Turn, Preparation Phase, Artifact Activation:
"Once per turn, you may select one artifact, covenant, or curse to be activated and flip it face up on your artifact pile. The face up artifact, covenant, or curse becomes active and cannot be changed until your next turn. To change the activated artifact, covenant, or curse, you select a new artifact it and place it face up on the artifact pile and return the other artifact, covenant, or curse face down in the artifact pile. If you choose to have no artifacts, covenants, or curses activated, you may turn the top artifact, covenant, or curse face down."

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #11 on:** January 16, 2012, 02:46:28 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on January 16, 2012, 11:30:52 AM

SomeKittens and galadgawyn are correct. This ruling has been around since LotS was released.

The reason for the LotS ruling is that you have one opportunity to active an Artifact on your Artifact pile during your prep phase, regardless of whether or not it's the same Artifact you had active last turn. Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play.

Artifacts do not automatically "turn off" at the start of your turn, or the start of your prep phase. The Artifact on your Artifact pile remains active during the prep phase until you decide to deactivate it or leave it active for another round.

This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

This is how I thought it was - But what about Artifacts ala I am Holy that need to reactivate each round, I thought they were the basis for artifacts deactivating each round.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:06:18 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 16, 2012, 02:46:28 PM

This is how I thought it was - But what about Artifacts ala I am Holy that need to reactivate each round, I thought they were the basis for artifacts deactivating each round.

If you choose to leave an Artifact active that has an ability which completes upon activation (like I am Holy), all that means is that you choose the point during your prep phase you'd like to reactivate it (aka use the ability). There's no need to flip the card face down and then face up again.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:15:51 PM »

Cool. Learn something everyday around here.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #14 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:20:28 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 16, 2012, 03:15:51 PM

Cool. Learn something everyday around here.

Not to get off topic or anything, but it seems that your mod status overrides your Elder status. Was that intentional?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #15 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:21:51 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 16, 2012, 03:20:28 PM

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on January 16, 2012, 03:15:51 PM
Cool. Learn something everyday around here.
Not to get off topic or anything, but it seems that your mod status overrides your Elder status. Was that intentional?

It does for all the elders in their mod section. In sections that RDT (or I) do not mod, you'll only see Redemption Elder.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:22:27 PM »

No idea.

You'd have to ask Schaef about it - It's his forum, I just play in it.

adotson85 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:27:30 PM »

So this leads me to my next question. If I start my turn with no arficact active, am I allowed to play territory class enhancements before activating an artifact?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:28:11 PM »

Other forums, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but here, you should have some indicator you know what you're talking about. (ProfA I mean. RDT should just have a giant warning about his taste in ties)

@adotson85: yes.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2012, 03:28:36 PM »

Well before this thread, I would have said absolutely

Now I'll say that I'm fairly certain that you can.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** January 16, 2012, 04:28:58 PM »

Quote from: adotson85 on January 16, 2012, 03:27:30 PM

So this leads me to my next question. If I start my turn with no arficact active, am I allowed to play territory class enhancements before activating an artifact?

Absolutely. You can perform any "prep phase actions" (ex: play a Site, TC, character, etc.) in any order you choose. But there's just one opportunity to activate/deactivate a card on your Artifact pile. You can do that whenever it best benefits your strategy.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** January 16, 2012, 05:23:25 PM »

I have a followup question that hasn't been firmly answered to my recollection:

Say I have Gifts active from last turn and it's my new Prep phase. Can I play MtM, draw my two cards, then activate a different Art? I have had PTB (this was first asked in some form before the elder system) coming down on both sides of it, and either using an Art's SA signifies that you are choosing to keep that Art active for the turn, or that your artifact management can happen whenever you want during your prep, so you can use its ability before choosing to manage your artifacts, then activate a different one when you reach that action. Which is it? Is it different if you have $4 and your opponent plays Mayhem during your prep phase (i.e. using the protection from $4 signifies your keeping it up)?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** January 16, 2012, 05:28:22 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 16, 2012, 05:23:25 PM

I have a followup question that hasn't been firmly answered to my recollection:

Say I have Gifts active from last turn and it's my new Prep phase. Can I play MtM, draw my two cards, then activate a different Art? I have had PTB (this was first asked in some form before the elder system) coming down on both sides of it, and either using an Art's SA signifies that you are choosing to keep that Art active for the turn, or that your artifact management can happen whenever you want during your prep, so you can use its ability before choosing to manage your artifacts, then activate a different one when you reach that action. Which is it? Is it different if you have $4 and your opponent plays Mayhem during your prep phase (i.e. using the protection from $4 signifies your keeping it up)?

I would say that you should be able to use GotM then activate a new art afterwards. Not sure if there's precedent or not, but if I had to make a ruling in a snap, that's how I'd rule it. Hopefully other elders can comment on it.

Gabe · « **Reply #23 on:** January 16, 2012, 08:35:03 PM »

I asked that same basic question long before I was an elder, except the cards involved were Feast of Trumpets and Gifts of the Magi. I wanted to bring FoT back, use Gifts for extra drawing, then change my Artifact.

Much to my dismay, the ruling Bryon gave was that using the ability on Gifts during my prep phase was indicating that I chose that for my active Artifact for the next round, so I was not allowed to change it. I just did a quick search for that topic but apparently it's old enough to have been lost in "the great purge".

I haven't seen or heard anything this would change that ruling so I believe it still stands. In the rare instance that you can force an opponent to use the protect ability from an Artifact during their prep phase, like in Pol's example with $4, base on the previous ruling by Bryon, I would say it's a clever way to keep someone from changing their Artifact for a turn.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #24 on:** January 16, 2012, 09:48:17 PM »

Gabe is correct.

I also recall the discussion with Bryon about it. I believe I'd asked a similar question around the same time as well.

Here's a thread from last year in which Gabe states the status quo ruling - http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/artifact-sneakiness/msg419871/#msg419871

I'll keep searching, see if I can find any other official reference to it.

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Author Topic: Art Activation (Read 5555 times)

Chronic Apathy