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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: adotson85 on January 16, 2012, 01:07:57 AM
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I start my draw phase by drawing 3, then deactivate my current artifact, play a territory class enhancement and then activate a different artifact, is this allowed?
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No. The act of choosing what artifacts you want active where all happen at the same time.
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Perfectly Legal.
It's late so I'll write up a more detailed response as to why its legal in the morning - But I'm fairly certain that it is.
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Perfectly Legal.
It's late so I'll write up a more detailed response as to why its legal in the morning - But I'm fairly certain that it is.
This is my thinking too. The reason being is that arts deactivate at the start of each owner's turn. The art deactivates after i draw and according to game rules I can activate arts and play territory class enhancements during my prep phase in no particular order.
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Unfortunately, I don't think that is correct. This partly because this is an area of the rules that is still not clearly defined (last I heard).
I know that you can't deactivate an artifact, play a card, and then reactivate the same artifact that turn (rulings on Lampstand). Your description would leave an opening to play evil Doms and no such window exists if Lampstand is up last turn and this turn.
RDT may be correct because the ruling may be different if it is a different artifact.
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Galadgawyn is correct in regards to activating the same artifact - However Adotson spelled out my logic for its legality perfectly. It is a different case for activating a different artifact.
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Deactivating an artifact means that you are choosing to have no artifact active that turn.
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So in theory, there's nothing stopping me from deactivating Lampstand, playing a couple evil doms, then activating a different copy of Lampstand?
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SomeKittens and galadgawyn are correct. This ruling has been around since LotS was released.
The reason for the LotS ruling is that you have one opportunity to active an Artifact on your Artifact pile during your prep phase, regardless of whether or not it's the same Artifact you had active last turn. Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play.
Artifacts do not automatically "turn off" at the start of your turn, or the start of your prep phase. The Artifact on your Artifact pile remains active during the prep phase until you decide to deactivate it or leave it active for another round.
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
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Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play. ......
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
The rules don't technically say that you can choose to just deactivate an artifact, do they? (everyone plays as though you can) I remember that being discussed but I don't remember if that was officially added as an option. Similarly, can you choose to just deactivate an artifact being held on a fortress?
I remember there being such a big deal made about the Lampstand situation but your post made me wonder if there was a legal option all along - you switch your artifact pile from Lampstand to Bronze Laver, play a bunch of evil Doms, and then activate Lampstand on your temple. Why would that not be allowed? and if it is then I don't understand the big debates about Lampstand.
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The rules don't technically say that you can choose to just deactivate an artifact, do they? (everyone plays as though you can) I remember that being discussed but I don't remember if that was officially added as an option.
Rulebook, Diagram of a Turn, Preparation Phase, Artifact Activation:
"Once per turn, you may select one artifact, covenant, or curse to be activated and flip it face up on your artifact pile. The face up artifact, covenant, or curse becomes active and cannot be changed until your next turn. To change the activated artifact, covenant, or curse, you select a new artifact it and place it face up on the artifact pile and return the other artifact, covenant, or curse face down in the artifact pile. If you choose to have no artifacts, covenants, or curses activated, you may turn the top artifact, covenant, or curse face down."
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SomeKittens and galadgawyn are correct. This ruling has been around since LotS was released.
The reason for the LotS ruling is that you have one opportunity to active an Artifact on your Artifact pile during your prep phase, regardless of whether or not it's the same Artifact you had active last turn. Once you choose to deactivate your active Artifact and take another game action (ex: play a non-Artifact card) you are choosing to have no Artifact active for the next round of play.
Artifacts do not automatically "turn off" at the start of your turn, or the start of your prep phase. The Artifact on your Artifact pile remains active during the prep phase until you decide to deactivate it or leave it active for another round.
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
This is how I thought it was - But what about Artifacts ala I am Holy that need to reactivate each round, I thought they were the basis for artifacts deactivating each round.
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This is how I thought it was - But what about Artifacts ala I am Holy that need to reactivate each round, I thought they were the basis for artifacts deactivating each round.
If you choose to leave an Artifact active that has an ability which completes upon activation (like I am Holy), all that means is that you choose the point during your prep phase you'd like to reactivate it (aka use the ability). There's no need to flip the card face down and then face up again.
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Cool. Learn something everyday around here. :)
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Cool. Learn something everyday around here. :)
Not to get off topic or anything, but it seems that your mod status overrides your Elder status. Was that intentional?
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Cool. Learn something everyday around here. :)
Not to get off topic or anything, but it seems that your mod status overrides your Elder status. Was that intentional?
It does for all the elders in their mod section. In sections that RDT (or I) do not mod, you'll only see Redemption Elder.
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No idea.
You'd have to ask Schaef about it - It's his forum, I just play in it.
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So this leads me to my next question. If I start my turn with no arficact active, am I allowed to play territory class enhancements before activating an artifact?
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Other forums, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but here, you should have some indicator you know what you're talking about. (ProfA I mean. RDT should just have a giant warning about his taste in ties)
@adotson85: yes.
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Well before this thread, I would have said absolutely ;) Now I'll say that I'm fairly certain that you can.
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So this leads me to my next question. If I start my turn with no arficact active, am I allowed to play territory class enhancements before activating an artifact?
Absolutely. You can perform any "prep phase actions" (ex: play a Site, TC, character, etc.) in any order you choose. But there's just one opportunity to activate/deactivate a card on your Artifact pile. You can do that whenever it best benefits your strategy.
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I have a followup question that hasn't been firmly answered to my recollection:
Say I have Gifts active from last turn and it's my new Prep phase. Can I play MtM, draw my two cards, then activate a different Art? I have had PTB (this was first asked in some form before the elder system) coming down on both sides of it, and either using an Art's SA signifies that you are choosing to keep that Art active for the turn, or that your artifact management can happen whenever you want during your prep, so you can use its ability before choosing to manage your artifacts, then activate a different one when you reach that action. Which is it? Is it different if you have $4 and your opponent plays Mayhem during your prep phase (i.e. using the protection from $4 signifies your keeping it up)?
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I have a followup question that hasn't been firmly answered to my recollection:
Say I have Gifts active from last turn and it's my new Prep phase. Can I play MtM, draw my two cards, then activate a different Art? I have had PTB (this was first asked in some form before the elder system) coming down on both sides of it, and either using an Art's SA signifies that you are choosing to keep that Art active for the turn, or that your artifact management can happen whenever you want during your prep, so you can use its ability before choosing to manage your artifacts, then activate a different one when you reach that action. Which is it? Is it different if you have $4 and your opponent plays Mayhem during your prep phase (i.e. using the protection from $4 signifies your keeping it up)?
I would say that you should be able to use GotM then activate a new art afterwards. Not sure if there's precedent or not, but if I had to make a ruling in a snap, that's how I'd rule it. Hopefully other elders can comment on it.
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I asked that same basic question long before I was an elder, except the cards involved were Feast of Trumpets and Gifts of the Magi. I wanted to bring FoT back, use Gifts for extra drawing, then change my Artifact.
Much to my dismay, the ruling Bryon gave was that using the ability on Gifts during my prep phase was indicating that I chose that for my active Artifact for the next round, so I was not allowed to change it. I just did a quick search for that topic but apparently it's old enough to have been lost in "the great purge".
I haven't seen or heard anything this would change that ruling so I believe it still stands. In the rare instance that you can force an opponent to use the protect ability from an Artifact during their prep phase, like in Pol's example with $4, base on the previous ruling by Bryon, I would say it's a clever way to keep someone from changing their Artifact for a turn.
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Gabe is correct.
I also recall the discussion with Bryon about it. I believe I'd asked a similar question around the same time as well.
Here's a thread from last year in which Gabe states the status quo ruling - http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/artifact-sneakiness/msg419871/#msg419871 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/artifact-sneakiness/msg419871/#msg419871)
I'll keep searching, see if I can find any other official reference to it.
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What is the difference between using an artifact effectively (like $4 with mayhem) and using an artifact to no effect like 3 nails. It seems to me that in both cases you are using your activated artifact.
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I think that is a good point. I also recall that as the status quo ruling from the past but maybe that should be overturned. It seems like a bottom up ruling to limit use of cards like GotM.
What if I have Cov of Salt? that increases all Old Testament heros by 2/2 active and my opponent plays Samarias to drop my heros to 2/2. At that point the Cov is sustaining them and as soon as I deactivate it then those heros are discarded. So when I get to my Prep phase then that artifact is automatically being used and I can't deactivate it as long as those heros are out. That seems consistent with Pol's Mayhem example which seems consistent with the GotM example but I don't think it should be ruled that way.
The only distinction I can see is making the argument that choosing to play something like Feast of Trumpets with GotM is making a conscious decision to use it versus my example where it is automatic but that seems like a bad line to draw. I think it would be much simpler to erase the limitations and just say that you get one artifact activation on your artifact pile during your prep phase regardless of the order or what else you are doing in the prep phase.
P.S. still wondering about the legality of playing evil doms between switching Lampstand to the temple.
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@Galad, that's an emphatic no.
The other option to look at here is the reintroduction of an actual sequence of actions. Not saying it's the best option, but it would be easier to reconcile that with the apparent dislike for allowing double-dipping on your Artifacts.
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@Galad, that's an emphatic no.
which part? why?
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The debate is about more complicated things. Everyone agrees that once you start activating and deactivating, doing anything other than that signals the end of your artifact management. If you deactivate Lampstand, then do anything else that isn't activating or deactivating an artifact, you cannot activate or deactivate any more artifacts.
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Polarius is incorrect as per Gabe's post below.
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
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Just looking for some clarification because this line of discussion is starting to confuse me. Is it legal to start a turn, draw three, deactivate an old artifact and activate a new artifact, and then play out a turn?
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Just looking for some clarification because this line of discussion is starting to confuse me. Is it legal to start a turn, draw three, deactivate an old artifact and activate a new artifact, and then play out a turn?
Yep, that's perfectly legal.
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@Galad: A possible solution to that ruling is that using the artifact only counts if said artifact has a "may" ability. This way, arts like Cov w/ Salt and $4 don't prevent a new activation, but it prevents abuse with cards like GotM and Holy Grail.
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The other option to look at here is the reintroduction of an actual sequence of actions.
This might be a good solution. Perhaps we should just say that all artifact activation has to happen at the "beginning of your prep phase" before anything else happens (ie. bringing people back from set aside or playing dominants).
That would solve all of this right?
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I believe it would solve it, though it would remove a fair amount of strategy that is possible currently.
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The other option to look at here is the reintroduction of an actual sequence of actions.
This might be a good solution. Perhaps we should just say that all artifact activation has to happen at the "beginning of your prep phase" before anything else happens (ie. bringing people back from set aside or playing dominants).
That would solve all of this right?
Using the word solves implies there is a problem. Has it been established this is a problem?
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In the rare instance that you can force an opponent to use the protect ability from an Artifact during their prep phase, like in Pol's example with $4, base on the previous ruling by Bryon, I would say it's a clever way to keep someone from changing their Artifact for a turn.
It seems I've caused some unnecessary confusion here. I apologize. I was wrong.
Causing a player to use an active, ongoing ability that they chose to activate on their last turn does not take away their opportunity to activate an Artifact. It's really all about choice. Their choice to use this took place on a previous turn, so it would not count as their choice to use an Artifact this turn. The reason the Gifts of the Magi example DOES count as their Artifact activation is because it's an optional ability - "you may draw". If I choose to use that optional ability, then I'm choosing that as my Artifact for the next round.
Please continue to discuss the implications, but I think that clears up an problem with all the examples given above (Cov of Salt, Lampstand, etc.)
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I'm digging through my artifact collection (pun intended), and here's some potential problems:
- I Am Creator (AW)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
No "May" ability, so I can use it during Upkeep, and then activate another art.
- Anything with "May be used X times" i.e. Cov w/ Moses. Does the negate lasting for the beginning of the turn count as a use?
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Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
No "May" ability, so I can use it during Upkeep, and then activate another art.
It's not a "may" ability, so it's used upon activation and only upon activation. So you can't use it during your draw or upkeep phase, sorry.
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Darn CS training me to read that as if(true) //dostuff. Sounds good, I can't find any other problems with my proposed rule clarification. (but that's the mother of all biases)
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[/li]
[li]Anything with "May be used X times" i.e. Cov w/ Moses. Does the negate lasting for the beginning of the turn count as a use?[/li]
[/list]
I believe the "may" in those instances does not give you a choice as to when to use the ability, but is language limiting the number of time you can use it. If were were to print Cov w/Moses today, instead of "May be used twice." it would say "Limit twice."
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Quote from: SomeKittens on January 17, 2012, 04:12:22 PM
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
No "May" ability, so I can use it during Upkeep, and then activate another art.
It's not a "may" ability, so it's used upon activation and only upon activation. So you can't use it during your draw or upkeep phase, sorry.
I've seen it played at other times like during battle or discard phase and remember that was ruled to be legal. Maybe because there is a trigger that allows it to be used when fulfilled? Since it is not a "may" ability, then do you have to search for a hero as soon as the condition is met? That seems technically right, but I have not seen it played that way.
Polarius is incorrect as per Gabe's post below.
Quote from: Gabe on January 16, 2012, 04:30:52 PM
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
This is why I'm asking is it legal to play cards between activating an artifact on the artifact pile and putting an artifact on a temple, etc. I understand the restriction of not playing cards between the deactivation and activation of an artifact on the pile since that is a single action that happens once a turn but do the rules actually lump all artifacts together into an artifact management phase?
sidenote: don't ongoing artifact abilities last until the end of the phase that they are active in? I'm pretty sure this is true if they are discarded but is this true if they are deactivated? If it is true then it wouldn't matter for evil doms if I could deactivate Lampstand, play cards, and then activate Lampstand in a temple because the ability would still be active for the prep phase which would doubly make me wonder why this was ever an issue. Of course if this is true then it has other implications but if this is not true then I think it should be legal to fit in the evil Doms.
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Scenario: Activate Gifts of the Magi on your artifact pile. Bring Feast of Trumpets back from set aside to draw (with the bonus from Gifts). One of the cards you draw is Magic Charms. You activate Magic Charms on your magician in territory.
I see nothing wrong with the above order of events. Therefore, I am led to believe that the artifact pile and each identifier allowing an artifact to be placed somewhere can be used independently and at different times during the prep phase as the turn player sees fit.
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+1 with galadgawyn. I Am Creator is worded as a trigger, NOT as a must do immediately upon activation. The reason is that there is a duration for checking the trigger, "...during each of your turns." I will agree that the trigger must be activated immediately when IAC is activated. As soon as the trigger is met during the duration of the player's turn, the player must perform the search. That's how I see it.
I Am Creator
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
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I asked specifically about I Am Creator a few weeks ago (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/artifact-timing-(i-am-creator-wastelands-etc)/), and Professoralstad said:
If an artifact has an instant ability, then it depends on whether there is a may in the ability or not. Artifacts like I am Creator and I am Redemption can only happen on activation, since there is no may. Artifacts like I am Healing or Holy Grail say may, so they can happen at anytime while they are active.
He also referenced a thread over 3 years old (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/i-am-creator/msg296516/#msg296516) where Bryon said:
I Am Creator cannot be used at any time other than when it is activated.
That's where all the "may" stuff comes from.
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I asked specifically about I Am Creator a few weeks ago (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/artifact-timing-(i-am-creator-wastelands-etc)/), and Professoralstad said:
If an artifact has an instant ability, then it depends on whether there is a may in the ability or not. Artifacts like I am Creator and I am Redemption can only happen on activation, since there is no may. Artifacts like I am Healing or Holy Grail say may, so they can happen at anytime while they are active.
He also referenced a thread over 3 years old (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/i-am-creator/msg296516/#msg296516) where Bryon said:
I Am Creator cannot be used at any time other than when it is activated.
That's where all the "may" stuff comes from.
I have read and been a part of most of those discussions. I understand and like the ruling, but like some rulings, I find it is incomplete and creates inconsistency. I am simply a lobbyist who continually pushes for completeness, consistency, and clarity.
The issue is that the ruling for artifact activation has been simplified too much and doesn't properly address artifact abilities that contain triggered abilities. Make no doubt, I Am Creator contains a triggered ability. My wish is that the definition for artifact activation be expanded enough to include a clear explanation of how triggered abilities are handled, AND if I Am Creator is to be considered as NOT having a triggered ability that an errata be given to it.
That's all. :)
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This is why I'm asking is it legal to play cards between activating an artifact on the artifact pile and putting an artifact on a temple, etc. I understand the restriction of not playing cards between the deactivation and activation of an artifact on the pile since that is a single action that happens once a turn but do the rules actually lump all artifacts together into an artifact management phase?
sidenote: don't ongoing artifact abilities last until the end of the phase that they are active in? I'm pretty sure this is true if they are discarded but is this true if they are deactivated? If it is true then it wouldn't matter for evil doms if I could deactivate Lampstand, play cards, and then activate Lampstand in a temple because the ability would still be active for the prep phase which would doubly make me wonder why this was ever an issue. Of course if this is true then it has other implications but if this is not true then I think it should be legal to fit in the evil Doms.
still looking for answers to these questions. Is this being discussed? Should I start another thread? just figured to keep it here since it seems to all be related.
Of course if this is true then it has other implications
scenario: I have The Master's Table active from last turn. I then decide to deactivate it and activate Holy Grail. The Master's Table ability is still active until the end of the phase and so I use Holy Grail to convert and discard a demon.
Does this work? Why?
I have not seen it played this way but it now seems to me to be logical and legal. Deactivate cards like Meal in Emmaus? are paired with a negate ability which wouldn't be necessary if artifact abilities went away when deactivated. Of course they could say that was explanation of game rule text but it doesn't sound like it and I thought they are trying to move away from that.
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still looking for answers to these questions. Is this being discussed? Should I start another thread? just figured to keep it here since it seems to all be related.
Sorry, I didn't realize your questions hadn't been addressed. Thanks for being patient and politely asking again. :)
This is why I'm asking is it legal to play cards between activating an artifact on the artifact pile and putting an artifact on a temple, etc. ...but do the rules actually lump all artifacts together into an artifact management phase?
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.
As far as I'm aware, activating an Artifact outside of the Artifact pile, like on Solomon's Temple or Magic Charms on a magician, can be done anytime during your prep phase and is not tied to your choice to activate an Artifact on the Artifact pile.
But for all you "game breakers", I don't believe you are allowed to deactivate a specific Artifact (ex: magic charms), take other prep phase actions (play a magician) and then activate Magic Charms again. Once you choose to deactivate a specific Artifact you have chosen to have that Artifact deactive for the next round.
sidenote: don't ongoing artifact abilities last until the end of the phase that they are active in? I'm pretty sure this is true if they are discarded but is this true if they are deactivated?
You're correct that rule applies to a card that is discarded. It does not apply to an Artifact that you choose to deactivate. The very term "deactivate" should make it clear enough that the ability is no longer "active".
Deactivate cards like Meal in Emmaus? are paired with a negate ability which wouldn't be necessary if artifact abilities went away when deactivated. Of course they could say that was explanation of game rule text but it doesn't sound like it and I thought they are trying to move away from that.
Meal in Emmaus is from Apostles. Wording was far from standardized when that set was released. Rules have been fine tuned since then too. For examples just look at the fact that we had to errata Unholy Writ. HHI is still messy and confusing (an Artifact ignored Heroes, how does that work?) and reminder text appears on a lot of cards like this one and Take as a Slave.