Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 10214 times)

ChristianSoldier · « **on:** December 22, 2008, 01:45:34 PM »

I was wondering, since the interrupt on Swift Horses lasts until the effect of the next enhancement completes, if I play Arrogance on it, are all the enhancements I play from the ability on Arrogance part of the interrupt?

An example would be if I were attacked by the kings Strong angel, and I blocked with a Babylonian with Swift Horses and played Arrogance, since the negate is interrupted its effect should go through, would every card I play using Arrogance's ability also not be negated?

Arrogance: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements.

Swift Horses: Weapon Class: Interrupt the battle and draw two cards. If used by a Babylonian, you may play the next Enhancement.

The Strong Angel: Warrior Class: All special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements are negated.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #1 on:** December 22, 2008, 01:52:48 PM »

I"m not 100% sure, but when you finished playing ehs with Arrogrance, Strong Angel's ability would take affect again and then those ehs would be negated.

Great question; I await other responses eagerly

STAMP · « **Reply #2 on:** December 22, 2008, 01:54:53 PM »

TSA's ability kicks back in after Arrogance.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:03:39 PM »

When you play Swift Horses and then Arrogance, it's basically like saying "Interrupt the battle and play as many enhancements as you choose," right? If so, I would think that if one of those enhancements removed TSA from the battle, his negate ability would never kick back in.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #4 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:05:48 PM »

Quote

When you play Swift Horses and then Arrogance, it's basically like saying "Interrupt the battle and play as many enhancements as you choose," right? If so, I would think that if one of those enhancements removed TSA from the battle, his negate ability would never kick back in.

That's how I expected it, its just another play next ability (just play next for as long as I want rather than play the next one)

STAMP · « **Reply #5 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:06:17 PM »

However, Arrogance does not have an "umbrella" effect on its SA like an Interrupt the battle. Yes, you get to play as many enhancements as you'd like, but ongoing effects kick back in after the SA for Arrogance is complete.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #6 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:15:20 PM »

so the SA's ability would take effect right after Arrogance? Then Arrogance would be negated before any other cards were played....

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:18:05 PM »

You cannot interrupt TSA'a ability anyway. The only reason Swift Horses is allowed is because it was Warrior-Class. Arrogance is not Warrior-Class so it is being prevented by TSA. Only Warrior-Class enhancements will have effect while TSA is in battle (or ehancements that Cannot be Negated/Prevented).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #8 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:20:14 PM »

Why can't you interrupt it? Its an ongoing ability without a cannot be interrupted clause, according to that logic you can't negate King of Tyrus's ability with the Might of Faith

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:24:10 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:20:14 PM

Why can't you interrupt it? Its an ongoing ability without a cannot be interrupted clause, according to that logic you can't negate King of Tyrus's ability with the Might of Faith

What is Might of Faith's ability? I cannot find it in the REG.

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:24:52 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:18:05 PM

Arrogance is not Warrior-Class so it is being prevented by TSA.

Actually, Arrogance's SA activates under Swift Horse's ITB so it is not prevented.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #11 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:26:37 PM »

Negate the special ability on an evil character. Cannot be prevented.
And for it to negate it has to interrupt it first.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #12 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:34:34 PM »

You can interrupt TSA's ability with Swift Horses, since TSA's ability does not prevent Swift Horses from activating, as mentioned by Scott. Scott is also correct that the prevent on TSA kicks back in after Arrogance is played, resulting in its negation. However, you can use Nergal with Swift Horses to play Arrogance without negation.

Kirk

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:36:27 PM »

So why do I get to play the next without negation with Swift Horses, but its negated with Arrogance?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »

I see what y'all are saying now. I guess I did not think it through completely.

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:36:27 PM

So why do I get to play the next without negation with Swift Horses, but its negated with Arrogance?

The "Play Next" is not negated. Arrogance (the card) stays on the table. However, its SA is negated after the interrupt completes, which removes all the cards that entered battle because of it (except those that Cannot be Negated). "Negate All" ability can be retroactive, unlike Interrupt the Battle which is more limited (i.e. last enhancement played).

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #15 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:44:05 PM »

So I can play enhancements with Arrogance, but once it completes the negate kicks in again and negates everything I played, am I right about this?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:46:49 PM »

Correct, unless any of the enhancements "Cannot be Negated/Interrupted," in which case they would stick. According to the REG, "Negate All" abilities remain in effect even if the character is removed.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #17 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:46:49 PM

Correct, unless any of the enhancements "Cannot be Negated/Interrupted," in which case they would stick. According to the REG, "Negate All" abilities remain in effect even if the character is removed.

Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA). I always assumed Arrogance was basically played as "you may play the next enhancement as many times as you like," in which case it would be treated the same as an interrupt/play next if played after Swift Horses. Does it not work that way in this case?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #18 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:50:58 PM »

If my character dies, because of Belshazzar's Banquet, all of my enhancements would be negated at that point?

MichaelHue · « **Reply #19 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:54:21 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on December 22, 2008, 02:50:58 PM

If my character dies, because of Belshazzar's Banquet, all of my enhancements would be negated at that point?

I don't think so, but I'm not sure. Negate all is treated as interrupt and prevent all, so it should work like this:

You draw and play Arrogance from the ability of Swift Horses
You play whatever followed by Belshazzar's Banquet
You die, TSA's ability kicks back in, but has nothing to interrupt as your evil character and all the evil enhancements played on it are in the discard pile. It also has nothing to prevent, as you aren't using any abilities after that point.

Basically the question is this: do cards played by the initiative granted by Arrogance gain the "umbrella effect" of the interrupt if Arrogance is played after Swift Horses' ability activates? If so, then if the evil character or the hero is removed from the field of battle before the "Negate All" ability reactivates, they stick. If not, the negate kicks back in in the middle of Arrogance's effect, which feels very wrong to me.

Going by what people have said, I think that Arrogance does benefit from Swift Horses' "umbrella," and as long as both TSA AND your evil enhancements are not in battle after you finish playing via Arrogance, nothing is negated.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:56:48 PM »

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM

Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA).

I was going by the REG example with banding in a "Negate All" character. i.e. TSA is banded into battle by Jacob. TSA negates the band, so he goes back and now the battle is "Negate All" with Jacob. Would that not be the case here?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #21 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:58:47 PM »

That is the special case that a negate cannot indirectly negate itself, to prevent negate loops from happening. Or at least how I understand it.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #22 on:** December 22, 2008, 02:59:48 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 02:56:48 PM

Quote from: MichaelHue on December 22, 2008, 02:50:25 PM
Except that you're interrupting the "Negate All" and THEN removing the character (assuming you play an enhancement after Arrogance that kills TSA).

I was going by the REG example with banding in a "Negate All" character. i.e. TSA is banded into battle by Jacob. TSA negates the band, so he goes back and now the battle is "Negate All" with Jacob. Would that not be the case here?

It would be, except that if you interrupt TSA's ability and then remove either him or the cards he is trying to negate from battle, he can't reinterrupt them. However, if you did use Jacob banded to TSA and TSA got kicked back out by his own SA, you could not interrupt his ability, so swift horses wouldn't protect anything from being negated. I think this is how it works, someone correct me if I'm wrong.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #23 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:07:12 PM »

I'm OK with being wrong, I just want to be sure.

Regarding Belshazzar's Banquet, the ECs are removed, but do the enhancements get discarded immediately? The REG says this under Battle Resolution:

All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards such as Thorn in the Flesh placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the owner’s discard pile.

I may be nitpicking the REG incorrectly again, but if enhancements are discarded during Battle Resolution, then Belshazzar's Banquet is still eligible to be negated if TSA is still in battle after the interrupt ends.

MichaelHue · « **Reply #24 on:** December 22, 2008, 03:12:54 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on December 22, 2008, 03:07:12 PM

I'm OK with being wrong, I just want to be sure.

Regarding Belshazzar's Banquet, the ECs are removed, but do the enhancements get discarded immediately? The REG says this under Battle Resolution:

All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards such as Thorn in the Flesh placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the owner’s discard pile.

I may be nitpicking the REG incorrectly again, but if enhancements are discarded during Battle Resolution, then Belshazzar's Banquet is still eligible to be negated if TSA is still in battle after the interrupt ends.

I think the issue is that the character is being discarded before battle resolution. If the evil character is discarded by a special ability, the enhancements played on that character are discarded at the same time (I think). My understanding of this is that enhancements played in battle with only one character of a compatible brigade are dependent on that character for existence. If a character is discarded by numbers or if battle just ends and a character survives, then the enhancements are discarded during battle resolution. I'm pretty sure that removal by special ability is not actually Battle Resolution, and that Battle Resolution only takes place when one side of the battle is completely removed, both players pass initiative in a stalemate or mutual destruction, or one player who is losing by the numbers passes initiative.

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Author Topic: Arrogance off Swift Horses (Read 10214 times)