Author Topic: Arrogance (Read 15566 times)

Gabe · « **Reply #75 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:43:23 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 24, 2009, 02:30:31 AM

Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).

To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).

Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #76 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:51:43 AM »

Quote

Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards

He's being humble, he comes up to MN to stop me from maxing out locals and districts.

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #77 on:** July 24, 2009, 07:16:22 AM »

Quote

That's the part I'm having an issue with. I can see fudging the numbers to let you play an interrupt on someone being Discarded because it's a needed part of the game. But they've already been removed from the game by the time they would "normally" get a chance to interrupt. How can you play an interrupt on someone who is not being removed from the game, but already is removed from the game?

Because you always have an opportunity to negate your own discard/removal assuming something isn't preventing it (CBN or end-the-battle, for instance). If you were to stack an end-the-battle card too, then it could not be negated.

Negating it is tougher than you think, anyway, because you'd have to negate an enhancement played a couple of enhancements ago, not just the "last" enhancement.

Kevin Shride

The Schaef · « **Reply #78 on:** July 24, 2009, 07:20:07 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 24, 2009, 01:25:10 AM

That's the part I'm having an issue with. I can see fudging the numbers to let you play an interrupt on someone being Discarded because it's a needed part of the game. But they've already been removed from the game by the time they would "normally" get a chance to interrupt. How can you play an interrupt on someone who is not being removed from the game, but already is removed from the game?

This is the Grand Paradox of the game, you are always always always afforded a "last-chance" initiative to negate a special ability that is causing you to lose the battle. (/waits for the rules lawyers to come back and talk about cannot-be-negated cards and DoU-type cards and blah blah blah. I know. I'm just talking about initiative when losing.)

It's no different than delaying the "instant" ability to discard you under normal circumstances, e.g. Coliseum Lions", only in the case of Arrogance, the other player must finish resolving his ability to play cards, after which you still get your paradoxical "last-chance" card. Of course, Arrogance still presents the opportunity to thwart your efforts, because unless this has changed on me, if they play Coliseum Lions on your Hero, and then some other card(s), then a negate-last would not work because the one that killed you was not the "last" card played.

:edit: Yeah, what Kevin said.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #79 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:12:29 AM »

But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?

happyjosiah · « **Reply #80 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:22:16 AM »

Tim it sounds like you are saying contradictory things. Your brevity is making things less clear, at least for me. Based on my example, it looks like there is no opportunity to interrupt Wrath becasue the hero in battle is in the discard pile and then removed from the game. Aside from something like covenant of noah, does the hero get a chance to play an interrupt enhancement?
I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #81 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:23:47 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 24, 2009, 09:12:29 AM

But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?

I believe the ones that would be interrupted are the one causing the hero to lose and the capture, since it was the last one played.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #82 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:47:31 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 24, 2009, 09:12:29 AM

But an interrupt the battle card would work, since an opponent's SA is causing you to lose by removal? Then that leads to the question of how which enhancements are then interrupted. Say I have King David vs. Archers of Kedar. If my opponent played Arrogance, CLions, Mask of Worldliness, two deck d/c cards, and a capture, and I play Reach, then AoCP, which of my opponent's abilities happen?

Lets visit the basics.

Interrupt the Battle
Interrupt the battle interrupts the following:

• Your opponent’s special abilities that are (1) causing you to be losing by removal (e.g., your opponent’s Net), or (2) causing a mutual destruction by mutual removal (e.g., your opponent’s King Zimri but not your own King Zimri).

• The last enhancement played in battle, as long as it was played by an opponent (e.g., your opponent’s False Peace but not your own Reach of Desperation).

• ALL ongoing special abilities (see Ongoing Abilities).

Therefore, it would interrupt Coliseum Lions (causing you to lose by removal) and the Capture (last enhancement played by opponent)

Kirk

SirNobody · « **Reply #83 on:** July 24, 2009, 11:24:24 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 24, 2009, 09:22:16 AM

I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.

If I play Joseph in Prison you can negate it even though your hero is already removed from the game. In this example with Wrath there is an extra step but the end result is the same.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 24, 2009, 02:30:31 AM

Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN.

I count three that were from MN: Nathan Voigt, Matt Brinkman, and Tim Maly

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

happyjosiah · « **Reply #84 on:** July 24, 2009, 12:25:05 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on July 24, 2009, 11:24:24 AM

Hey,

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 24, 2009, 09:22:16 AM
I don't see how he could since he is already removed from the game.

If I play Joseph in Prison you can negate it even though your hero is already removed from the game. In this example with Wrath there is an extra step but the end result is the same.

I guess I never saw this as "already being removed from the game" just "about to be unless you interrupt right now". I always thought it was carry out abilities immedidately, unless they are interrupted. Since initiative never passes until it is too late, the interrupt opportunity wouldn't be there. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #85 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:11:35 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 24, 2009, 02:30:31 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 24, 2009, 01:40:13 AM
You mean right now?
Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).

To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).

Nope the people in MN are not ahead of all others around the nation, just some. Likewise others around the nation are ahead of alot of the Minnesota players. Your facts are correct however you should remember that,
1) No Alstads were at Nationals
2) RNRS is a joke
3) RNRS is a joke
4) RNRS is a joke
5) Did I mention that RNRS is a joke?
(no offense to any one who has placed in RNRS)

Ps, I don't ever remember placing in two RNRS catagories.

The Guardian · « **Reply #86 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:36:56 PM »

Quote

Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else.

If you go back to 2004 Nationals to the present time, I believe you will find MN pretty much near the top in terms of Nationals placings.

Furthermore, some of the MN greats have not competed at Nationals during this time such as Chris Bany and Mike Turnidge.

From my memory:
2004: T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T2 MP Jordan Alstad 2nd
2005: Sealed Seth Micke 1st, T2 MP Adam Erickson 1st, Justin Alstad 3rd, T1 2P Jonathan Alstad 2nd, T1 MP David Ebert 1st Booster Draft Jacob Weisenburger 3rd
2006: T2 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, Jonathan Alstad 2nd (2 more Alstads in the top 7)
2007: T2 MP Nathan Voigt 1st, T2 2P Justin Alstad 1st
2008: T1 2P Nathan Voigt 2nd T2 MP Matt Brinkman 2nd

There could even be a few I'm missing, don't have time to double check the spreadsheets right now.

And oh yeah, Tim Maly is pretty much from MN so throw in all his placings in there too...

lightningninja · « **Reply #87 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:42:50 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on July 24, 2009, 02:43:23 AM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 24, 2009, 02:30:31 AM
Not to take away from the many AWESOME players in MN, but I don't think it is accurate anymore (if ever) to say that they are still ahead of everyone else. Looking at the rankings from last year, of the 18 people who placed at Nats, only 2 were from MN. And of the 18 people who placed in RNRS for the whole year, only 2 were from MN (and they were the same guy).

To put that in perspective, South Carolina and Texas had the same number of placing spots (4), and Iowa had even more (5).

Iowa is basically MN Jr. for Redemption purposes. I travel to their tournaments when I want some good competition. I learn as much or more playing people from MN as I do from these boards.

Thanks Gabe. I know you're talking about West Minnesota.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #88 on:** July 27, 2009, 08:04:33 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 27, 2009, 07:36:56 PM

If you go back to 2004 Nationals to the present time, I believe you will find MN pretty much near the top in terms of Nationals placings.

Furthermore, some of the MN greats have not competed at Nationals during this time such as Chris Bany and Mike Turnidge.

From my memory:
2004: T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T2 MP Jordan Alstad 2nd, T1 2P Jordan Alstad 3rd
2005: Sealed Seth Micke 1st, T2 MP Adam Erickson 1st, Justin Alstad 3rd, T1 2P Jonathan Alstad 2nd, T1 MP David Ebert 1st Booster Draft Jacob Weisenburger 3rd
2006: T2 MP Justin Alstad 1st, T1 MP Justin Alstad 1st, Jonathan Alstad 2nd (2 more Alstads in the top 7)
2007: T2 MP Nathan Voigt 1st, T2 2P Justin Alstad 1st
2008: T1 2P Nathan Voigt 2nd T2 MP Matt Brinkman 2nd

There could even be a few I'm missing, don't have time to double check the spreadsheets right now.

And oh yeah, Tim Maly is pretty much from MN so throw in all his placings in there too...

Fixed. I was actually happier about my 3rd place finish in T1 2P than my second place in T2 MP. My deck used Glory of the Lord like none other that I've seen. Sadly, Blue Tassels and Priestly Crown have since been effectively removed from the Temple. But it sure was sweet to frustrate any popular defensive strategy of the day, be it site lockout, BTN, Capture, or territory destruction.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #89 on:** July 27, 2009, 09:56:09 PM »

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

Smokey · « **Reply #90 on:** July 27, 2009, 09:56:54 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 27, 2009, 09:56:09 PM

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

Now I am too, thanks for sharing

Sean · « **Reply #91 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:02:48 PM »

Quote

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

I am enjoying it as well.

The Warrior · « **Reply #92 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:04:34 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 27, 2009, 09:56:09 PM

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

as am i

The Guardian · « **Reply #93 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:08:50 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 27, 2009, 09:56:09 PM

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

Really guys?

While it is ironic, (and yes I noticed it too) I truly hope you don't believe it's actually arrogance, because that was not the point. It was a statement of fact. Notice I never said "MN is best, end of story." Prof made a claim, I made a counter point and backed it up with indisputable data, that's all it is folks.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #94 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:21:11 PM »

I was just pointing out the irony.

The Guardian · « **Reply #95 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:26:42 PM »

Fair enough, I simply did not want people to think my brother and I were arrogant, stuck up players who only care about winning and being recognized for it, that was all.

Ironica · « **Reply #96 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:42:00 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 27, 2009, 09:56:09 PM

I am the only one who is enjoying the irony of the Minnesota people tooting their own horns in a thread titled "Arrogance?"

Gotta love the irony (which, if you couldn't guess by my internet name, I do

)

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #97 on:** July 28, 2009, 01:41:44 AM »

dont worry justin we love you man

Is this the face of Arrogance? i think not

The Guardian · « **Reply #98 on:** July 28, 2009, 01:43:16 AM »

Oh good times...

crustpope · « **Reply #99 on:** July 28, 2009, 10:38:37 AM »

Ha ha. That is awesome.

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Author Topic: Arrogance (Read 15566 times)

The Schaef

TheHobbit13

Ironica