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Arrogance followed by wrath of satan followed by something else. Is there a chance for the hero to interrupt WoS or are they already discarded?

That's what we need answered, along with whether or not you are limited to your original hand when playing arrogance.  Also whether the effects happen right away or are they delayed?

If it does in fact allow an uninterruptible discard, it would definitely be worth playing.
Based on the other thread linked above, it has been pretty well established that cards played need to be declared first. That's not really intuitive, but I can see how they got there.

Have you never played against a Sin in the Camp deck?

Kirk

Yes.  It didn't use Arrogance.

I think it's really funny that we keep having these discussions about Arrogance when I have yet to see anyone play it.

I think more people would play it if they knew exactly what it did 

I have two questions about this card:

1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance)  would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.

Relevant Abilitys:

Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)

Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)

Here's the way I would see it:

First, play Arrogance, which basically gives you unlimited initiative to play Enhancements.

Play Wrath of Satan, which kills all heroes in play. All heroes in players' territories would go to their discard piles, but the hero in battle remains until end of battle (I'm pretty sure this is the rule about battles -- that even if their toughness reaches zero, they are not discarded until end of battle -- however, all other heroes would die immediately).

Then play Murmuring, which would basically remove all their heroes except for the one in battle from the game.

Then play Worshiping Demons to end the battle immediately (provided the conditions of having an artifact depicting an idol or evil altar in play is met). Ordinarily, I would say that if Wrath of Satan were played, since the hero doesn't die until the end of battle normally, that they are now losing by numbers and have a chance to interrupt the battle or negate Wrath of Satan, if they can (even though there were a couple of cards played later). But in this case, the battle ends immediately so your opponent would not have a chance to respond.

That's how I see the battle playing out. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of my points.

Quote from: Smokey on July 21, 2009, 04:54:17 PM

I have two questions about this card:

1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance)  would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.

Relevant Abilitys:

Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)

Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)

Here's the way I would see it:

First, play Arrogance, which basically gives you unlimited initiative to play Enhancements.

Play Wrath of Satan, which kills all heroes in play. All heroes in players' territories would go to their discard piles, but the hero in battle remains until end of battle (I'm pretty sure this is the rule about battles -- that even if their toughness reaches zero, they are not discarded until end of battle -- however, all other heroes would die immediately).

I have never heard such a rule for discard. Perhaps you are lumping in the decrease numbers with a discard? This rule would allow me to play Authority of Christ after some one else plays Wrath of Satan and that is not how it works.

Ok For what its worth here is my take on the whole mess:

First the card:

Arrogance

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

I play arrogance, play Wrath of Satan, Murmuring, declare I am done and then they resolve in the order they were played.  That is because we rule by what the cards say!  The card already interrupts the normal passing of initiative by numbers, it should also bypass passing of initiative by removal because the card says to play as many as I wish.  I wish to continue playing cards.  That is the only check placed on the ability, the second line seems to me to pass initiative regardless of numbers because it says so, so there would be a chance to negate Wrath of Satan, if you had the appropriate negate.  I don't see how this a broken way to play.  Its exactly how the card says to play.

But I am clearly the target of the enhancement, so the target doesn't change.  Precedence are cards like False Dreams and the like that target players.

... Yup I was inconsistent, but I stand by the rest of my post and am editing that out.

Yes,  but you have to place the enhancements that you are playing into the field of battle first, then activate their abilities. Therefore, you would not be able to play a card that was drawn since you would already have passed initiative at that point. The cards activate "simultaneously," just before the transfer of initiative.

As far as I know, if you play a card like Reach of Desperation, which allows you to draw cards and play the next Enhancement, you are allowed to play an Enhancement from the cards that you drew.

Hey,

I said this in the Arrogance thread that was linked to earlier in this thread but I think it merits repeating.

Arrogance is like Babel for enhancements.  You choose a certain number of enhancements to play put them all into play at once, they then take effect in the order you choose.  Once the last enhancement completes you determine initiative normally (giving a character the opportunity to negate their own removal from battle if that is applicable).

I asked Mike to include a Play As for Arrogance in the REG update that is coming out this weekend.  If things go smoothly come Monday Arrogance will have the play as, "Holder may play X enhancements."  With the new identifier: "X = any number that holder chooses"

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Hey,

A) If a card played off arrogance removes all heroes from battle, can the defending player continue playing enhancements or does the rescuing player get to interrupt?

The defender continues to play enhancements.  Arrogance is an instantaneous ability, you do not determine or pass initiative until it's ability has completed.

B) Does Arrogance target enhancements in your hand, or can you play any cards that you drew after playing Arrogance.

It targets enhancements in your hand.  You cannot play an enhancement that you drew after playing Arrogance as part of Arrogance's ability.

We need a solid ruling, because as the thread I linked and this thread show... all we do with arguing about it is go in circles, and never come to a solid conclusion. The card is worded kinda vague, so it very well could be as EITHER side says it is. Thats where Rob comes in and makes the final decision.

Mike's post on page 7 of the thread you linked to is official.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly