Author Topic: Arrogance (Read 15363 times)

Smokey · « **on:** July 21, 2009, 04:54:17 PM »

I have two questions about this card:

1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.

Relevant Abilitys:

Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)

Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:01:57 PM »

1. No. The battle ends and Battle Resolution begins.
2. Yes, as long as they went to the discard pile.

Smokey · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:19:42 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 21, 2009, 05:01:57 PM

1. No. The battle ends and Battle Resolution begins.
2. Yes, as long as they went to the discard pile.

What would keep them from going to the discard pile?

SirNobody · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:21:23 PM »

Hey,

If the hero that attacked was Servant Girl she would be captured rather than discarded. Things like that.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Smokey · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:22:04 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on July 21, 2009, 05:21:23 PM

Hey,

If the hero that attacked was Servant Girl she would be captured rather than discarded. Things like that.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

But, aside from that and protection fortresses etc. that combo would still work?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:46:43 PM »

What is Murmuring?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:01:31 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on July 21, 2009, 06:46:43 PM

What is Murmuring?

It's that...

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:07:11 PM »

Arrogance + Wrath + Murmuring is WICKED.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:32:27 PM »

I guess I didn't catch the memo on this: If you play a battle-winner (not a battle-ender) with Arrogance, does your opponent get to negate before you finish using Arrogance's ability? If not, then if you play something after the battle-winner, does your opponent get to negate at all?

(If this hasn't been decided yet, I'll move it to another post.)

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:45:37 PM »

Quote from: Smokey on July 21, 2009, 04:54:17 PM

I have two questions about this card:

1. If I play an enhancement that ends the battle after playing Arrogance, would the last line of the SA of the enhancement matter (Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements)
2. If I played wrath of satan, then murmuring, then worshiping demons, (after Arrogance) would any of the heroes I targeted with wrath of satan be removed by murmuring.

Relevant Abilitys:

Arrogance, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing enhancements. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon, Connected with David • Verse: I Samuel 17:43-44 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Rare)

Wrath of Satan, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard all Heroes in play. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Revelation 12:12 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Rare)

Worshipping Demons, Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 0 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If an Artifact depicting an idol or evil altar is in play, protect all Lost Souls from rescue. End the battle. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons, False Religious Practice • Verse: Revelation 9:20 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 2)

From the REG
Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.

You cannot play murmuring after wrath because you have to play the cards one at a time. Your opponent can play a negate in between because he gains innitiative since he is losing the battle because of wos. I am about 95% sure on this. Furthermore I don't believe you can play murmuring after wrath even if the hero does not play a negate, because the innitiative passes and the battle has now ended.
EDIT
I misread the Sa on Arrogance. The question is does the SA on arrogance trump the game rule that says you can play a negate when you are losing. I say yes it does trump the game rule so you cannot play a negate.
Edit,
I reread the sa on arrogance and I stand by my first point, because it does not say that after you are done playing the enhancements (for Arrogance) is the only time innitiative passes it passes by a game rule when you are losing the battle.This should be a good discussion nonetheless.

Even if it is ruled that you cannot play a negate on wos it is only because of the second clarifying ability on arrogance. The second ability should be taken out for the same reason the second ability on Nero was taken out.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2009, 07:51:51 PM »

I remember there was a huge discussion about this.... started be me.... but I can't remember the conclusion oddly enough.

I argued that you could continue to lay down enhancements even after a battle winner, and when you were done, they all just activated at once (in order).

Arch Angel · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2009, 08:58:56 PM »

Arrogance was previously ruled to play like a massive banding card like Unified Kingdom. It targets specific cards (your hand), and then once they're all played their abilities activate in the order you put them into the battle.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:21:47 PM »

So it's as if they were all played simultaneously?

lightningninja · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:24:06 PM »

Is that right? I thought unified kingdom had each guy's ability activate as he entered.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:04:29 PM »

It does, but it targets only what's available and brings them all in 'at one time'. Their abilities happen sequentially, though, the sequence determined by the ability-player.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #15 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:08:35 PM »

I don't understand this line of thinking.
If I play arrogance and then play wrath of satan, why wouldn't wrath of satan activate right then? Nothing is delaying it.
The way I see it, one of two things happens then:
1. Initiative passes because the hero is losing the battle, regardless of the ability on arrogance, and the hero may play an interrupt.
OR
2. Initiative does not pass, due to the ability of arrogance, and the discarded hero has no chance to interrupt. In this case, the EC could continue playing enhancements until finished, which would activate immediately as they are played.

ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.

crustpope · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:23:24 PM »

with Josiah. That seems to be the way it has been played everyother time I have played it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:57:26 PM »

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=14506.0

There is the thread if you fancy a bit of reading.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:01:58 PM »

When it comes down to it, no ruling was achieved. I read that thread, and it was contentious all the way through with no clear resolution. Can we finally get a ruling on this card?

happyjosiah · « **Reply #19 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:13:23 PM »

I read through the whole thread as well. What basically came out of that is that Arrogance should essentially be played as "you may play x enhancements" x = any number you choose. You must select which enhancements and how many to play when arrogance's ability takes effect. Therefore, this cannot include cards in your draw pile. If you play a card like Dream after arrogance, you draw three cards and may play ONE of the cards you draw as it allows you to play an additional enhancement. Basically, treat arrogance as similar to cards that band in multiple heroes. You first select all that will band in and then band them in one by one, allowing each one's ability to take effect.
So, in the example:
First play arrogance.
Then declare you will be playing wrath of satan and murmurming. Wrath of satan takes effect, discarding all heros. Then, murmuring removes all cards in the discard pile from the game.
What is not clear from that entire thread is if the hero being discarded ever gets a chance to interrupt wrath of satan. This is only addressed very early on in the thread and goes by the wayside without resolution.

Korunks · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:23:17 PM »

But there was some significant rebuttal of that argument, So I don't recognize it as official. Its one thing when the PTB are in agreement, its different when they can't agree.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:12:49 PM »

Once all cards arrogance is going to play have been played, they activate. I believe (as in am not certain) that once all the abilities completed, if the hero(es) in battle are losing by removal, they would get a chance to negate it, assuming you didn't inish Arrogance with a "end the battle" card. IF you did negate it, though, it would need to be with a card that negates AN enh., as WoS would not be the LAST enh played.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:26:51 PM »

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 22, 2009, 12:08:35 PM

ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.

Gaining innitiative BTN is different than gaining innitiative by a special ability.

Here is how I see it, arrogance allows you to play as many enhancements as you want and when you decide you are done the innitiative passes to the other player. There is no such thing as play enhancements simutaneously, so I play the enhnacements one at a time. The minute I play wrath the hero in battle is discarded. Wrath triggers a game rule that says, when I am losing the battle by a special ability I get a chance to negate that such enhancement. Arrogance does not give me innitiative to play the card but wrath does. Since wrath was played after arrogance wrath regives me innitiative by triggering a game rule.

Another way to look at it would be this/ If I played arrogance and played as many enhancements as I want when I am done playing my enhancements you would have innitiative right? Not always, what if my enhancements had no numbers and I was losing the battle BTN? Does innitiative pass? No because that contradicts the game rule of "you cant pass innitiative when you are losing. Why would arrogance get around the game rule of losing by a special ability when it doesn't get around this game rule. It just seems wrong to me.

Smokey · « **Reply #23 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:53:01 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 22, 2009, 04:26:51 PM

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 22, 2009, 12:08:35 PM

ETA: I'm much more inclined to #2, logically, even if that is not the intent of the card. The argument for #1 seems to be "but you gain initiative due to a game rule." By that logic, the card wouldn't do anything because you gain initiative due to a game rule when losing by numbers as well. The card seems to specify that iniative passes ONLY when you are done playing enhancements.

Gaining innitiative BTN is different than gaining innitiative by a special ability.

Here is how I see it, arrogance allows you to play as many enhancements as you want and when you decide you are done the innitiative passes to the other player. There is no such thing as play enhancements simutaneously, so I play the enhnacements one at a time. The minute I play wrath the hero in battle is discarded. Wrath triggers a game rule that says, when I am losing the battle by a special ability I get a chance to negate that such enhancement. Arrogance does not give me innitiative to play the card but wrath does. Since wrath was played after arrogance wrath regives me innitiative by triggering a game rule.

Another way to look at it would be this/ If I played arrogance and played as many enhancements as I want when I am done playing my enhancements you would have innitiative right? Not always, what if my enhancements had no numbers and I was losing the battle BTN? Does innitiative pass? No because that contradicts the game rule of "you cant pass innitiative when you are losing. Why would arrogance get around the game rule of losing by a special ability when it doesn't get around this game rule. It just seems wrong to me.

If what your saying is true than theres no point in even bothering to play this card.

D-man · « **Reply #24 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:09:18 PM »

Yes there is. If you wanted to play a ton of territory-killing enhancements without passing initiative, then Arrogance allows you to do so. Otherwise, as soon as your numbers are higher than theirs, they could just end the battle or something, preventing you from playing your other territory-killing enhancements. It might not be very useful, but no one ever said it had to be.

I honestly don't know which interpretation is correct and don't care too much either way. I just wanted to point out that it has potential use whichever interpretation is correct.

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Author Topic: Arrogance (Read 15363 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

TheHobbit13