Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Hey,

So "regardless of brigade" targets the Hero but "play next" targets the Enhancement?

English lesson part 2: For abilities that express an interaction between two cards (or two sets of cards) the subject of the sentence is the target, the verb is the ability type, and the direct object is the second card in the interaction.  (Note that the verb in pretty much all cases is the ability).

Example: "Hero ignores brown brigade."

Subject (target): Hero
Verb (ability): Ignores
Direct Object: brown brigade [cards]

Coat of Many Colors: "Selected Hero may use enhancement cards from any good brigade until end of current battle."

Subject (target): Hero
Verb (ability): use
Direct Object: enhancement cards from any good brigade

Also, anytime the word "select" or "selected" appears in a special ability it's pretty much a dead give away that the selected card is the target of the ability.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Hey,

Ok, let's say I use Battle Cry and I want to band in Captain of the Host (Warriors) and The Strong Angel (Warriors).  The Strong Angel's ability would negate Battle Cry, so I essentially decide to band in CotH "first" though technically they are being brought into battle by the same ability at the exact same time, thus their abilities activate at the same time.  How does this work out?  Can I decide to band in one first?

Nothing in redemption happens "at the same time" (with the possible exception of New Jerusalem rescuing a second lost soul because it's ability says 'simultaneously').  There are two stages to activating an ability: (1) declaring targets, (2) carrying out the effect on each target.  Step two happens to one target at a time, starting with the first declared target working it's way to the last.

So in your example, if you want Captain to take precedence over The Strong Angel you target Captain with Battle Cry then you target The Strong Angel with Battle Cry, then you declare yourself done selecting targets and you start carrying out the effect of the ability.   The first target, Captain, is brought into battle and his ability activates, then the second target, The Strong Angel, is brought into battle and his ability activates (except it is now prevented by Captain so it doesn't do anything).

If so, what if I band Angel at Shur into battle?  His ability activates, and I bring out a hero.  Can I band in that hero, since Angel at Shur's ability activated first?  If not, why can I band CotH in first, and then TSA?

Once again you declare targets for Battle Cry and you declare just one this time, Angel at Shur, then you declare yourself done declaring targets.  You then carry out the effect of the ability so you bring Angel at Shur into battle activate it's ability and search for a hero.  You cannot band that hero into battle because you did not declare it as a target in the first stage of activating Battle Cry and you are now in stage two of activating battle cry so it is too late to declare an additional target.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

3.) We define fun differently.

I don't think you and I differ very much at all about what constitutes "fun" when it comes to Redemption. Given that, however, I guess my question is how playing Arrogance the way you interpreted it any more fun than playing it the way it has been ruled? From the let's-sit-down-and-have-a-friendly-game point of view, Arrogance with any ruling tied to what's actually written on the card stinks.

The only solutions I can see would be to ban the card or to give it a "play as" that makes it play completely differently from what is written. Neither of those solutions is particularly "fun" either.

Does Holder - play - enhancement express an interaction between the player and one or more cards or does it express an interaction between two cards?

So what you're really talking about is consistency given conditions that you have arbitrarily put into place to conveniently ignore inconsistencies.  The language only applies in select instances when you say it applies.

...the presence of conditions does not make it arbitrary or inconsistent.

The fact that the structure you presented exists nowhere outside your own creation makes it arbitrary; that is the very definition of the word.  And the fact that you have conjured a means by which you interpret this card differently than every other instance of this type of ability and the normal way in which Enhancements are played, again makes it the very model of inconsistency.

The Hero is not the target of an ignore card because of grammatical structure, but because of the nature of the effect; it protects the Hero from the effects of the stated cards.  The ability to play the next Enhancement suspends the rules of initiative and allows you to play additional cards.  The player is the target of such an effect because of the nature of the ability (see also: cards that alter your draw phase, or restrict the types of battles you may begin), the subject of the sentence does not impact that, nor do I see any reason that any iteration of that should limit the next Enhancement to cards in one's hand.  I have already stated that other play-next Enhancements do not limit you to the cards in hand at the moment you played your card; of that there should be no dispute.

To use verbal gymnastics to try and arrange this card differently is overthinking the plumbing.  I don't have the luxury of designating arbitrary rules that do not appear in the rules and cannot be derived from them, and it is not my intention to start advocating rule additions based on sentence structure.  All cards of a type will operate within the same parameters that define how they work within the framework of the rules.

Hey,

The ability to play the next Enhancement suspends the rules of initiative and allows you to play additional cards.  The player is the target of such an effect because of the nature of the ability.

When we eliminated human actions I argued that play the next enhancement should be an ongoing ability that was described as "suspending the normal rules of initiative."  But I lost that argument and play the next enhancement was categorized as an instantaneous ability.  It was Bryon who eventually helped me to understand that play the next enhancement does not target the player or the game rules but the enhancement card that is played.

I have already stated that other play-next Enhancements do not limit you to the cards in hand at the moment you played your card; of that there should be no dispute.

It's not the moment you play the card that matters, it's the moment the play the next enhancement ability activates.  How can an instantaneous ability play a card from your hand that is not in your hand at that instant?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

1.) There is no "we." I  was the only one complaining. Prof Underwood was agreeing with the one scenario I described.

Okay, that's cool. You're not the only one to say something about certain cards that "break the game", and make the game not fun. I just don't understand why people would wait for so long to say something when these cards that "break the game" have always been around, and will always probably be. In most card games there are a set of powerful cards that give you an advantage in my experiences.

2.) You have been playing Arrogance that way for 5 years, but I have not. I explained how I have always ruled/played it, so my complaint is with the way that all of you have been playing it. For me, this is a new ruling.

That's interesting, I guess that would be quite a shock to find out what this card can actually do.

3.) We define fun differently. I define fun by the enjoyment of my playgroup. If my kids are having fun, then I am having fun. When they are not having fun, I choose to reassess the fun I am having, whether I'm having a "good day" or not.

When the game isn't fun anymore, it's time to find a new game.

Yeah, I guess we do. What is it that makes your kids have fun playing Redemption?

And then, "KHAAAAANNN!!!!!"

Arrogance is the same way.  You choose (target) all of the enhancements you are going to play with the ability and then you put them into play and carry out their abilities.  If the first enhancement you play with Arrogance's ability is Dream and you draw Great Image and Set Fire you can't decide to play them with Arrogance's ability too for the same reason you can't band the character in with Babel that you drew with Two Thousand Horses, when you draw the card, you're past the declaring targets part of the ability so it is too late to decide to target that card too.  (Albeit Dream itself allows you to play an enhancement so you could play one of the cards you draw with Dream as part of Dream's ability.  You can also play your chain of Dreams before you play Arrogance since they give you the "play next" ability.)

I agree with this. You have to pick the cards you play as part of Arrogance when you play Arrogance (say, cards A, B and C). However, if one of the cards is Dream (say card B), Dream allows you to draw three cards (say, a, b and c) and play an additional card (say b). The card "b" is not part of the Arrogance cards targeted to play, but instead is played as part of the Dream special ability sequence. Any other cards drawn with Dream (a and c) cannot be played as part of Arrogance card sequence, since they were not targeted when Arrogance was played.

It might be easier to place all the enhancements you wish to play with Arrogance on the table in the order you wish to play them. Once on the table, you go through each card, one at a time, and perform their special abilities, one at a time. Arrogance allows you to play multiple cards without having to check initiative, but limits you to playing cards you had in your hand at the time.

Mike

Mike

As Tim said several times, you have to select targets right when a card is played, always. Arrogance is no exception.

so then by that reasoning I can't play an enhancement i draw with any of the "Draw X cards and play the next enhancement" cards because the cards I drew weren't targeted when the card was initially played.

Also, I agree with RR. If Arrogance can't play cards you drew because they weren't initially targeted, then you should be able to block a character that's ignoring a character that's in your hand/deck/darkness anyways because they're not in play to be targeted and the default of targeting is in play.

As noted previously, the wording for Arrogance is horrible, no utterly horrible, if played according the the understanding given.

Hey,

Question, wouldnt Dream interrupt Arrogance's SA anyways, and then once it ends, you could "retarget" the 3 cards you just drew?

Arrogance is an instantaneous ability, and it is not played by your opponent, thus it would not be interrupted by Dreams "interrupt the battle" ability.

Also, if a hero said "Hero may play enhancements of any color"... going off the logic you all are using, he could only play the enhancements that were in your hand to begin with. I dont agree with this at all.

Read my last post on page 5 of this thread.  We already addressed that exact issue.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly