Author Topic: Arrogance. (Read 29982 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #50 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:34:55 PM »

Come on schaef, you know you wanna make the play as so long the darkness seems like 'Discard a hero in play'

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #51 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:41:12 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 15, 2009, 09:13:23 PM

You play arrogance.
You play as many Enhancements as you want.
Initiative is checked after you declare yourself done.

Stephen, is initiative merely checked or does it "pass?" That can make a big difference.

@YMT--as a FFotP (Former Fighter of the Power) who has learned to be content as a LotM (Lackey of the Man) it helps to start by learning a few simple phrases. I have found "I am quite sure that The Schaef is correct...," "I would side with SirNobody on this one...," and "Oh noes--The Schaef and SirNobody disagree--what is the Bat Signal to bring Bryon from his lair?" to be three of the most useful.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #52 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:43:28 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 15, 2009, 09:41:12 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on February 15, 2009, 09:13:23 PM
Initiative is checked after you declare yourself done.
Stephen, is initiative merely checked or does it "pass?" That can make a big difference.

Agreed.

If you finish arrogance and you are loosing by the numbers.... would it pass to the opponent due to the card CLEARLY saying "Inititative passes to your opponent"? If so... what happens then? would they get to play one card and initative passes back to me, or would my EC just die?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #53 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:50:46 PM »

I thought we were trying to move away from situations where one player can do nothing but watch. If Arrogance is played after Love of Money, then you can have removals and discards that cannot be negated if the sequence ends with a Forgotten History type of card. If Arrogance's SA is meant to be taken literally, wouldn't the hero now get initiative after "the battle immediately ends?" Can the battle immediately end if Arrogance's SA is not completed?

Now, if you throw Momentum change in before Forgotten History, this process recycles and becomes exactly the kind of spectator sport that I thought we were fighting in the bigger picture.

SirNobody · « **Reply #54 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:54:08 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on February 15, 2009, 09:33:16 PM

Holder may play as many evil Enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing Enhancements.

I don't know what needs play-as'd. It seems remarkably clear to me given that it came before the recent attempts to tighten up the language.

The second sentence I think need to be removed entirely. And I would probably reword the first sentence slightly, "Holder may play 500 enhancements." would do. That's assuming the card is played as I think it is played.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #55 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:02:31 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 09:50:46 PM

I thought we were trying to move away from situations where one player can do nothing but watch. If Arrogance is played after Love of Money, then you can have removals and discards that cannot be negated if the sequence ends with a Forgotten History type of card. If Arrogance's SA is meant to be taken literally, wouldn't the hero now get initiative after "the battle immediately ends?" Can the battle immediately end if Arrogance's SA is not completed?

Now, if you throw Momentum change in before Forgotten History, this process recycles and becomes exactly the kind of spectator sport that I thought we were fighting in the bigger picture.

Isnt it about time DEFENSES could actually strike back like this? Besides, I'd expect that once you play arrogance, you know EXACTLY what you will play and in what order. I doubt it'd take as long as you make it sound. The offensive versions let your draw your entire deck...

Also, Momentum Change + a LOT of enhancements + Forgotten history... unless your opponent has some major numbers on their side... I dont expect you would die easily. Perhaps you meant a card like Bel's Banquet?

SirNobody · « **Reply #56 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 09:50:46 PM

I thought we were trying to move away from situations where one player can do nothing but watch. If Arrogance is played after Love of Money, then you can have removals and discards that cannot be negated if the sequence ends with a Forgotten History type of card. If Arrogance's SA is meant to be taken literally, wouldn't the hero now get initiative after "the battle immediately ends?" Can the battle immediately end if Arrogance's SA is not completed?

Now, if you throw Momentum change in before Forgotten History, this process recycles and becomes exactly the kind of spectator sport that I thought we were fighting in the bigger picture.

Yes the battle can immediately end with other abilities pending. You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.

You just have to be careful about giving a crimson character the initiative to play Arrogance, similar to the way you already have to be careful about giving gray initiative lest they hit you with the false peace chain, bearing bad news, momentum change combo.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #57 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:09:37 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 09:50:46 PM

I thought we were trying to move away from situations where one player can do nothing but watch. If Arrogance is played after Love of Money, then you can have removals and discards that cannot be negated if the sequence ends with a Forgotten History type of card. If Arrogance's SA is meant to be taken literally, wouldn't the hero now get initiative after "the battle immediately ends?" Can the battle immediately end if Arrogance's SA is not completed?

Now, if you throw Momentum change in before Forgotten History, this process recycles and becomes exactly the kind of spectator sport that I thought we were fighting in the bigger picture.

Not that I don't agree, but we can't reword old s.a. just because they do differently than what we want.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #58 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:15:01 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 10:02:31 PM

Isnt it about time DEFENSES could actually strike back like this? Besides, I'd expect that once you play arrogance, you know EXACTLY what you will play and in what order. I doubt it'd take as long as you make it sound.

It's not necessarily the timing, but the fact that you can do nothing about it, then it will happen again next turn, and the next, etc.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 10:02:31 PM

Also, Momentum Change + a LOT of enhancements + Forgotten history... unless your opponent has some major numbers on their side... I dont expect you would die easily. Perhaps you meant a card like Bel's Banquet?

I was just throwing out general examples off the top of my head. I just meant a bunch of cards that do alot of damage.

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM

You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.

Not if you include cards like Dream (as mentioned earlier) that allow you to draw more cards.

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM

You just have to be careful about giving a crimson character the initiative to play Arrogance, similar to the way you already have to be careful about giving gray initiative lest they hit you with the false peace chain, bearing bad news, momentum change combo.

I guess that's what I am getting at. The modern game is not nearly as fun as it used to be. New players won't survive at tournaments because they will give up initiative. I had many young players in CT that simply stopped playing because they could not beat a professional speed deck. It was simply no fun to play.

I fear that we are driving away newer players while keeping the older loyal fan base interested. I miss the games where both players go back and forth with enhancement after enhancement until the entire table is overrun with cards for a single battle. That was fun, even if you lost the battle.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #59 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:17:26 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM

You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance

Say what?

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 09:15:47 PM

So for all of you who say I can play as many enhs as desired....

(A) do they all activate WHEN played?

(B) can my opponent interrupt while I am playing, or do they have to sit there until I am done and hope they have a Negate all to hit the kill card i played first?

Quote from: The Schaef on February 15, 2009, 09:21:01 PM

a - yes
b - they have to sit there and then negate all or interrupt the battle.

according to that, I could play dream and, if this was type 2, play it 5 times to draw 15 cards, then proceed to play whichever cards i want regardless of what i had in my hand to begin with.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #60 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:29:43 PM »

Quote from: Archangel withabunchofnumbersontheend on February 15, 2009, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM
You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance
Say what?

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 09:15:47 PM
So for all of you who say I can play as many enhs as desired....

(A) do they all activate WHEN played?

(B) can my opponent interrupt while I am playing, or do they have to sit there until I am done and hope they have a Negate all to hit the kill card i played first?
Quote from: The Schaef on February 15, 2009, 09:21:01 PM
a - yes
b - they have to sit there and then negate all or interrupt the battle.

according to that, I could play dream and, if this was type 2, play it 5 times to draw 15 cards, then proceed to play whichever cards i want regardless of what i had in my hand to begin with.

aint t2 swell? :-p

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #61 on:** February 15, 2009, 10:56:20 PM »

Quote

I guess that's what I am getting at. The modern game is not nearly as fun as it used to be. New players won't survive at tournaments because they will give up initiative. I had many young players in CT that simply stopped playing because they could not beat a professional speed deck. It was simply no fun to play.

Arrogance has been out since 2002. Therefore the game can't possibly be less fun NOW because of a card that has been exploited since its release. With the release of Kings and Momentum Change in 2004, it gained even more abuse. I would also contest that the game is not nearly as fun as it used to be. When the game was released, it was not very good. Then Warriors came around and saved the game, but FBN took over and EVERYONE played it. Then speed took over a few years down the road and now the meta game is spread out. I would say the game is the most fun that it has ever been before at this point in time. Newer players didn't have any easier of a time stopping FBN decks than they do speed decks, so I don't see what you are getting at. No matter what, new players usually will lose to the more experienced players, that is the how the game works. They simply learn how to build better decks and play the game better before they can succeed. It is the same way in Chess. A new chess player will of course lose at chess tournaments to more experienced players! I don't see why there should be any beef about new players losing in T1 tournaments....

Quote

I fear that we are driving away newer players while keeping the older loyal fan base interested. I miss the games where both players go back and forth with enhancement after enhancement until the entire table is overrun with cards for a single battle. That was fun, even if you lost the battle.

These looping one sided battles you speak of have been abused since 2004 when Momentum Change came out. There have been numerous rule changes since then to repeatedly fix the game from being 'broken.' So I don't know why you talk like this is such a big deal right now when it started 5 years ago and the effects are way less powerful now than they used to be...

Kirk

SirNobody · « **Reply #62 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:06:06 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 10:15:01 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM
You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.

Not if you include cards like Dream (as mentioned earlier) that allow you to draw more cards.

Quote from: Archangel withabunchofnumbersontheend on February 15, 2009, 10:17:26 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PM
You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance
Say what?

Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.

This is why I started out with the Babel analogy in the beginning. I play Babel I choose to band in Rabshakeh with Two Thousand Horses, Red Dragon, Goliath, and Emperor Nero. I bring them into battle and activate their abilities. If I draw an evil character with Two Thousand Horses can I choose to band that character into battle too? No. You're done declaring targets since you started bring in the characters and activating their abilities, you can't add any more targets.

Arrogance is the same way. You choose (target) all of the enhancements you are going to play with the ability and then you put them into play and carry out their abilities. If the first enhancement you play with Arrogance's ability is Dream and you draw Great Image and Set Fire you can't decide to play them with Arrogance's ability too for the same reason you can't band the character in with Babel that you drew with Two Thousand Horses, when you draw the card, you're past the declaring targets part of the ability so it is too late to decide to target that card too. (Albeit Dream itself allows you to play an enhancement so you could play one of the cards you draw with Dream as part of Dream's ability. You can also play your chain of Dreams before you play Arrogance since they give you the "play next" ability.)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #63 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:13:12 PM »

say WHAT?

I dont see anything about targeting enhancements. It just says I may play any enhancements I desire until I am finished.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #64 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:25:35 PM »

Quote

Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.

If thats so I can block ANY ignore card from hand, now once they get into battle they may be ignored BUT all cards (ignores included) default to play. So the ec in my hand can't be targeted till he hits battle.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #65 on:** February 15, 2009, 11:49:23 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 10:15:01 PM

I miss the games where both players go back and forth with enhancement after enhancement until the entire table is overrun with cards for a single battle. That was fun, even if you lost the battle.

I totally agree with this

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 11:25:35 PM

Quote
Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.
If thats so I can block ANY ignore card from hand, now once they get into battle they may be ignored BUT all cards (ignores included) default to play. So the ec in my hand can't be targeted till he hits battle.

I don't think that this is in line with the current understanding of how ignore works. However, it would solve a LOT of pre-block ignore silliness and would be great for the game

SirNobody · « **Reply #66 on:** February 16, 2009, 12:05:40 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 11:13:12 PM

I dont see anything about targeting enhancements. It just says I may play any enhancements I desire until I am finished.

Time for an English lesson

For abilities that express an interaction between the player and one or more cards the subject of the ability is the player that performs the action (often an understood you), the verb is the ability type, and the direct object is the target.

Example: "Holder may draw a card."

Subject (the player): holder
Verb (ability): draw
Direct Object (target): card

Arrogance: "Holder may play as many evil enhancements as desired."

Subject (the player): holder
Verb (ability): play
Direct Object (target): enhancement

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #67 on:** February 16, 2009, 12:21:13 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 11:25:35 PM

Quote
Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.
If thats so I can block ANY ignore card from hand, now once they get into battle they may be ignored BUT all cards (ignores included) default to play. So the ec in my hand can't be targeted till he hits battle.

We've covered this before, but I don't remember exactly where. There are 4 parts to ignore:

(1) The ignoring card is immune to the cards it ignores (targets the ignoring card).
(2) The ignored card is immune to the card that is ignoring it (targets the ignored cards).
(3) An ignored character in battle is treated as if it were not in battle for purposes of determining the state of battle (targets the ignored characters).
(4) An ignored character not in battle cannot enter battle (doesn't target anyone).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #68 on:** February 16, 2009, 12:58:03 AM »

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 09:54:08 PM

The second sentence I think need to be removed entirely.

If you mean that it is redundant, I believe it CAN be removed entirely. But it no more NEEDS to be removed than the second sentence of, say, Prince of This World, and probably less so.

Quote

And I would probably reword the first sentence slightly, "Holder may play 500 enhancements." would do. That's assuming the card is played as I think it is played.

That doesn't sound like an accurate description, since I've never seen a deck other than Kevin's monster that has 500 cards, much less Enhancements.

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 11:06:06 PM

Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.

So if I play Coat of Many Colors, I can only apply it to the cards in my hand at the time I play it?

SirNobody · « **Reply #69 on:** February 16, 2009, 01:04:35 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: The Schaef on February 16, 2009, 12:58:03 AM

Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 11:06:06 PM
Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.

So if I play Coat of Many Colors, I can only apply it to the cards in my hand at the time I play it?

Coat of Many Colors targets the selected Hero that can have any color enhancements played on it, not the enhancements.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SoulSaver · « **Reply #70 on:** February 16, 2009, 01:48:16 PM »

with Kirk. Why all of a sudden are we complaining about cards that have been out for about 5 or more years? That to me doesn't make sense at all. The "good ol days" were a time of FbtN crap, that was more overpowered than speed ever was or ever will be. And like it was stated before, pretty much no matter what you do to the game the nOObs are going to lose consistently when playing against veteran players. That's just how things work when it comes to playing games, and if it doesn't work that way something is wrong with the game. The game is more balanced than ever before and that in itself makes it easier for the nOObs to start playing competitively at tournaments.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #71 on:** February 16, 2009, 01:52:21 PM »

with Kirk and SS. However, I don't see the harm in continuing to balance the equation.

The Schaef · « **Reply #72 on:** February 16, 2009, 02:17:41 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on February 16, 2009, 01:04:35 AM

Coat of Many Colors targets the selected Hero that can have any color enhancements played on it, not the enhancements.

So "regardless of brigade" targets the Hero but "play next" targets the Enhancement?

MichaelHue · « **Reply #73 on:** February 16, 2009, 03:06:12 PM »

Ok, let's say I use Battle Cry and I want to band in Captain of the Host (Warriors) and The Strong Angel (Warriors). The Strong Angel's ability would negate Battle Cry, so I essentially decide to band in CotH "first" though technically they are being brought into battle by the same ability at the exact same time, thus their abilities activate at the same time. How does this work out? Can I decide to band in one first?

If so, what if I band Angel at Shur into battle? His ability activates, and I bring out a hero. Can I band in that hero, since Angel at Shur's ability activated first? If not, why can I band CotH in first, and then TSA?

It seems to me that when multiple independent abilities used by the same player activate at the same time, the player should determine in what order they take effect when they effect each other. Is this not how it's supposed to work?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #74 on:** February 16, 2009, 04:20:33 PM »

Quote from: SoulSaver on February 16, 2009, 01:48:16 PM

with Kirk. Why all of a sudden are we complaining about cards that have been out for about 5 or more years?

1.) There is no "we." I was the only one complaining. Prof Underwood was agreeing with the one scenario I described.

2.) You have been playing Arrogance that way for 5 years, but I have not. I explained how I have always ruled/played it, so my complaint is with the way that all of you have been playing it. For me, this is a new ruling.

3.) We define fun differently. I define fun by the enjoyment of my playgroup. If my kids are having fun, then I am having fun. When they are not having fun, I choose to reassess the fun I am having, whether I'm having a "good day" or not.

When the game isn't fun anymore, it's time to find a new game.

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Author Topic: Arrogance. (Read 29982 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

SoulSaver

The Schaef