Author Topic: Arrogance. (Read 30005 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #25 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:48:21 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 12:30:43 AM

Well, now I'm stuck.

I've heard several explainations from multiple people.... who is right here?

Its played (to my knowledge):
You play X cards (Take order in order played)
And if you kill the rescuer, well they can ITB :-p

Arch Angel · « **Reply #26 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:12:49 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 08:48:21 AM

And if you kill the rescuer, well they can ITB :-p

That's why you do a super archers band and play a million sin in the camps, confusions, etcetcetc.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #27 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:39:55 PM »

I'm not sure how you can justify playing enhancements when there is no hero in battle.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #28 on:** February 15, 2009, 03:53:38 PM »

E.T
Hidden Treasures

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #29 on:** February 15, 2009, 04:27:02 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 03:53:38 PM

E.T
Hidden Treasures

A hero would be in battle.

SirNobody · « **Reply #30 on:** February 15, 2009, 05:51:02 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 03:39:55 PM

I'm not sure how you can justify playing enhancements when there is no hero in battle.

Playing an enhancement by a special ability does not require there to be both a hero and an evil character in battle when it happens.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #31 on:** February 15, 2009, 06:29:05 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 04:27:02 PM

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 03:53:38 PM
E.T
Hidden Treasures

A hero would be in battle.

But an evil character isn't. Its just the reverse of it.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #32 on:** February 15, 2009, 07:06:42 PM »

I don't think theres a game rule stating an EC is not allowed to continue to play enhancements without a hero in battle, its just that no cards allow the situation to happen.

If there were a hypothetical card that said "Discard all heroes in battle. You may play the next enhancement. This ability can not be interrupted."... I would argue that you very well COULD play another enhancement.

The only reasons you cant play EE's without a hero in battle are as I stated above... and the fact that you cant put an EC into battle until a Hero has entered. Find me a quote in the REG that states EE's may NOT be played in battle unless a hero is in battle.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #33 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:00:39 PM »

Im tempted to make a website called "The REG" just so I can quote it in situations like this.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #34 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:34:13 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 14, 2009, 07:43:01 PM

Arrogance's SA trumps normal rules for passing initiative. However, an initiative check is only done if there is a hero and an EC in battle.

From the rulebook (p.17):

If you have a Hero(es) in the Field of Battle and your opponent has an Evil Character(s) in the Field of Battle, you need to check for initiative.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #35 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:53:28 PM »

Thats just saying you need to check for initiative when both groups are in battle.

Again, how come you can play enhancements BEFORE and Evil Character enters battle? Wouldnt you need to check for initative to play an enhancement then?

Also, you said Arrogance trumps initiative.

Also, for those who say "once the hero dies, the battle is over..." ... How come I am allowed to grab a new evil character using Unknown Nation after my opponent AotL's my only EC in battle? shouldnt the battle have ended as soon as my EC dies?

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #36 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:58:54 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 08:34:13 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 14, 2009, 07:43:01 PM
Arrogance's SA trumps normal rules for passing initiative. However, an initiative check is only done if there is a hero and an EC in battle.

From the rulebook (p.17):

If you have a Hero(es) in the Field of Battle and your opponent has an Evil Character(s) in the Field of Battle, you need to check for initiative.

Now to completely shoot down that statement.

Side battle between two evil characters? in that battle (battle is singular(not the field of battle) there is no hero, so no init checks are done and they instantly end?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #37 on:** February 15, 2009, 08:59:59 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 08:53:28 PM

Thats just saying you need to check for initiative when both groups are in battle.

Again, how come you can play enhancements BEFORE and Evil Character enters battle? Wouldnt you need to check for initative to play an enhancement then?

That's the way the rules are set up. The whole purpose of the game is to win Lost Souls. The hero enters first and does what he does. The blocker then comes in (if he can) to try to stop them. From then on, initiative passes back and forth. The rulebook clearly orders this process.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 08:53:28 PM

Also, you said Arrogance trumps initiative.

I said Arrogance trumps the passing of initiative. Initiative is not passed if there is no hero in battle, because the battle would be over. The hero starts the battle and there is no battle without the hero. That's the purpose of the game.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 08:53:28 PM

Also, for those who say "once the hero dies, the battle is over..." ... How come I am allowed to grab a new evil character using Unknown Nation after my opponent AotL's my only EC in battle? shouldnt the battle have ended as soon as my EC dies?

Heroes are not ECs. Again, the purpose of the game is for the hero to win Lost Souls. That's why when it is your turn, you are the hero. With no hero, there is no battle.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #38 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:01:13 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 08:58:54 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 14, 2009, 07:43:01 PM
Arrogance's SA trumps normal rules for passing initiative. However, an initiative check is only done if there is a hero and an EC in battle.

From the rulebook (p.17):

If you have a Hero(es) in the Field of Battle and your opponent has an Evil Character(s) in the Field of Battle, you need to check for initiative.
Now to completely shoot down that statement.

Side battle between two evil characters? in that battle (battle is singular(not the field of battle) there is no hero, so no init checks are done and they instantly end?

Except that the quote I gave specifically says Field of Battle.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #39 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:05:49 PM »

Oops XD, well I could still CM your hero. so assuming I do that....same idea as above.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:10:27 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 15, 2009, 12:30:43 AM

I've heard several explainations from multiple people.... who is right here?

I would side with SirNobody on this one. Arrogance explicitly states that the blocker may play as many evil enhancements as desired. After you have finished playing your enhancements, then the initiative passes to your opponent. Even in cases where he wouldn't normally have it, which could hurt the blocker.

While I would agree that by necessity, Arrogance's SA would trump the normal rules for passing initiative, that strikes me as a consequence of the SA and not its end result. Put another way, I can find nothing in Arrogance's SA that says it only trumps normal rules for passing initiative as opposed to the clear statement that you can play as many evil enhancements as you desire.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #41 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:12:04 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 15, 2009, 09:05:49 PM

Oops XD, well I could still CM your hero. so assuming I do that....same idea as above.

I would argue that the side battle would end. Initiative can no longer pass since there is no hero in the Field of Battle.

Of course, I'm wrong, so my opinion is worthless anyway. When I am the only one arguing for a certain ruling, that does not bode well for me. Sir Nobody is official, so the ruling he gave sticks. I just want to know why the rulebook did not work in this case.

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 15, 2009, 09:10:27 PM

While I would agree that by necessity, Arrogance's SA would trump the normal rules for passing initiative, that strikes me as a consequence of the SA and not its end result. Put another way, I can find nothing in Arrogance's SA that says it only trumps normal rules for passing initiative as opposed to the clear statement that you can play as many evil enhancements as you desire.

I would argue that the second sentence distinguishes the clarification. But, again, I would be wrong.

The Schaef · « **Reply #42 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:13:23 PM »

You play arrogance.
You play as many Enhancements as you want.
Initiative is checked after you declare yourself done. This is because the initial effect of Arrogance is not completed until after you've played all Enhancements of choice, just like you don't check initiative between Reach of Desperation and the "next" Enhancement that goes with it.

If the Hero is discarded, that happens at the time the Enhancement is played but if the blocker keeps going, the discard is still in that weird semi-suspended state where, at the initiative check later, you get a chance to negate-all or interrupt the battle, if possible. Negate-last does not work if there are other cards between the discard and your negate.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:15:47 PM »

So for all of you who say I can play as many enhs as desired....

(A) do they all activate WHEN played?

(B) can my opponent interrupt while I am playing, or do they have to sit there until I am done and hope they have a Negate all to hit the kill card i played first?

The Schaef · « **Reply #44 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:21:01 PM »

a - yes
b - they have to sit there and then negate all or interrupt the battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #45 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:25:07 PM »

Believe me when I say I'm already plotting things even worse.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:26:38 PM »

Quote

Sir Nobody is official

Sir nobody isn't official but he is usually right

its ok YMT, I've been in your stance before.

SirNobody · « **Reply #47 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:28:17 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 09:12:04 PM

Of course, I'm wrong, so my opinion is worthless anyway. When I am the only one arguing for a certain ruling, that does not bode well for me. Sir Nobody is official, so the ruling he gave sticks. I just want to know why the rulebook did not work in this case.

Opinions, especially when they are backed up with statements from the REG or rulebook, are never worthless. It is helpful when I see the opinions of others, it gives insight into how things can or should be reworded to make them clearer.

The reason the rulebook did not work is because Arrogance needs some serious play as.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #48 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:33:16 PM »

Holder may play as many evil Enhancements as desired. Initiative passes when holder is done playing Enhancements.

I don't know what needs play-as'd. It seems remarkably clear to me given that it came before the recent attempts to tighten up the language.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #49 on:** February 15, 2009, 09:34:26 PM »

Mabye instead of a Play As.... a little bit of text to clarify all the questions that were brought up in this thread?

News:

Author Topic: Arrogance. (Read 30005 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo