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Author Topic: David's Harp  (Read 1788 times)

Offline TheJaylor

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David's Harp
« on: July 22, 2017, 10:54:58 AM »
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Can you use David's Harp to topdeck Heroes that were discarded during a side battle? Particularly one that I create during my opponent's rescue attempt?

Example scenario: Opponent attack with Gideon, I block with King Rehoboam and create a side battle between two of my Heroes. Side battle ends in a mutual destruction. Can I topdeck either of my Heroes either after the side battle or after the main battle?



Based on how the card is worded, it seems like you wouldn't be able to, but I thought there was an errata/play as somewhere that said something more along the lines of, "Following a rescue attempt, you may topdeck a Hero that was discarded during that battle."
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kariusvega

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2017, 11:21:43 AM »
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Im going with no
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Offline Watchman

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2017, 01:48:28 PM »
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It says during a rescue attempt. A side battle would not qualify for the top deck.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 11:08:56 PM »
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Well, I figured that would be the case from the ability's wording, and I guess I should've put this in the OP, but I was mostly asking because I noticed on the Redemption Wiki that there is an Errata/Play As that reads as follows:

"Errata/Play As: Following any rescue attempt holder may select one of holder's Heroes that was or is about to be discarded from battle and place Hero on top of owner's deck. Prevent Evil Spirit."

I know Redemption Wiki isn't official, but I guess I was just curious where that came from, because it sounds like you should be able to topdeck any Hero (even though the above Play As says "one of holder's Heroes" but that doesn't jive with the ability) that was discarded during that rescue attempt, including Heroes discarded in a side battle during the RA. Just curious I guess. Gotta make the combos work and stuff.  :D
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 11:24:18 PM »
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The errata thread doesn't have anything for David's Harp so there doesn't seem to be any official rewording of it.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 12:22:53 AM »
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If there is no errata then the card doesn't function at all really. Because following a rescue, after the battle resolution, heroes that ought to be discard were already discarded in battle resolution.
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 12:25:55 AM »
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"Following a rescue attempt" refers to battle resolution since that is exactly what follows a rescue attempt.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 01:30:33 AM »
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How is battle resolution not apart of your rescue attempt? If you look at the language in the battle resolution section of the 4th edition rule book you'll see under the stalemate heading it says the "rescue attempt ends.." and under mutual destruction destruction by the number its says "the rescue attempt is successful". How can battle resolution follow your rescue attempt if it ends the rescue attempt or determines if it is successful or not? It seems like "following rescue attempt" is equivalent to "following battle resolution". But since characters characters are discarded in BR no character is about to be discarded in the following phase.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 01:34:22 AM by TheHobbit »
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 10:03:12 AM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 01:30:33 AM
How is battle resolution not apart of your rescue attempt? If you look at the language in the battle resolution section of the 4th edition rule book you'll see under the stalemate heading it says the "rescue attempt ends.." and under mutual destruction destruction by the number its says "the rescue attempt is successful". How can battle resolution follow your rescue attempt if it ends the rescue attempt or determines if it is successful or not? It seems like "following rescue attempt" is equivalent to "following battle resolution". But since characters characters are discarded in BR no character is about to be discarded in the following phase.

It doesn't say in the following phase, it says following the rescue attempt. Battle resolution is still in the battle phase and Harp happens at the end of battle resolution but before the next phase begins.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 01:51:12 PM »
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If it said in the following phase then I would agree with you that Harp would work. But it says after a rescue attempt, which according to the rulebook is definitely after mutual destruction and stalemate happen. After that David's Harp works but in a mutual destruction the hero is already discarded.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 02:08:20 PM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 01:51:12 PM
If it said in the following phase then I would agree with you that Harp would work. But it says after a rescue attempt, which according to the rulebook is definitely after mutual destruction and stalemate happen. After that David's Harp works but in a mutual destruction the hero is already discarded.

Quote from: The Guardian on July 24, 2017, 12:25:55 AM
"Following a rescue attempt" refers to battle resolution since that is exactly what follows a rescue attempt.

There's no difference in the timing of the discard of a Hero between losing and mutual.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 05:51:51 PM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 01:30:33 AM
How is battle resolution not apart of your rescue attempt? If you look at the language in the battle resolution section of the 4th edition rule book you'll see under the stalemate heading it says the "rescue attempt ends.." and under mutual destruction destruction by the number its says "the rescue attempt is successful". How can battle resolution follow your rescue attempt if it ends the rescue attempt or determines if it is successful or not? It seems like "following rescue attempt" is equivalent to "following battle resolution". But since characters characters are discarded in BR no character is about to be discarded in the following phase.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 05:54:49 PM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 05:51:51 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 01:30:33 AM
How is battle resolution not apart of your rescue attempt? If you look at the language in the battle resolution section of the 4th edition rule book you'll see under the stalemate heading it says the "rescue attempt ends.." and under mutual destruction destruction by the number its says "the rescue attempt is successful". How can battle resolution follow your rescue attempt if it ends the rescue attempt or determines if it is successful or not? It seems like "following rescue attempt" is equivalent to "following battle resolution". But since characters characters are discarded in BR no character is about to be discarded in the following phase.

As a part of battle resolution, characters are selected for discard or not. Following that selection, Harp insteads the discard.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 06:27:21 PM »
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And when Davids Harp would be able to do that the rescue attempt is not over.
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 06:34:25 PM »
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Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 06:27:21 PM
And when Davids Harp would be able to do that the rescue attempt is not over.

It is though, determining what to do with the characters (discard or return to territory) is the last action of battle resolution. Following that, but before the Hero hits the discard pile, the Harp instead takes place. There isn't anything more to tell you other than you're simply incorrect.
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Offline Red Wing

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 07:00:11 PM »
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So the moral of the story is don't play Davids Harp.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 07:08:51 PM »
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Quote from: Red Wing on July 24, 2017, 07:00:11 PM
So the moral of the story is don't play Davids Harp.
Or reprint David's Harp...
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TheHobbit13

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Re: David's Harp
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 08:18:31 PM »
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Quote from: Kevinthedude on July 24, 2017, 06:34:25 PM
Quote from: TheHobbit on July 24, 2017, 06:27:21 PM
And when Davids Harp would be able to do that the rescue attempt is not over.

It is though, determining what to do with the characters (discard or return to territory) is the last action of battle resolution. Following that, but before the Hero hits the discard pile, the Harp instead takes place. There isn't anything more to tell you other than you're simply incorrect.
The last action of battle resolution is discarding or return to territory. You determine the state of the battle in 1 and 2 and carry it out in three and here is when the character is about to be discarded. Yet in step 1 the rescue attempt has not ended because, according to the 4th edition starter rules battle resolution ends the rescue attempt. Not moving into the battle resolution, but the phase itself acts to end the rescue attempt:
Battle Resolution
After the last enhancement is played and both
players have passed, the battle ends (not rescue attempt) and the battle
outcome must be resolved.
"
The battle ends in a mutual destruction by numbers
if both the Hero(es) and the Evil Character(s) have
enough strength to defeat each other. In this case
both the Hero(es) and the Evil Character(s) are
discarded. All enhancements played during the Battle
Phase are discarded to each player’s respective
discard pile. JUST AS CHRIST LAID DOWN HIS
LIFE TO REDEEM US, THE HERO IS WILLING TO
LAY DOWN HIS LIFE TO RESCUE A LOST SOUL.
Therefore, in a mutual destruction by the numbers,
the rescue attempt is successful. " (not was)

And earlier
"Resolve the rescue attempt or battle
challenge (battle resolution)."


Also David's Harp is not an instead. What about Chariot of Fire?  How do you explain people shuffling characters into their deck that were discarded by mutual destruction? Is following a rescue attempt before or after mutual destruction?

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