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Just what the title says. I wanted clarification on this issue, more specifically regardless of protection, instead, and limit (I know CBx are all CBN). I prefer an elder response to this so the question can be answered definitively.

Thanks

This is an interesting question...do you have an example of an interaction that made you ask this?

There was recent discussion about it on the forum (I couldn’t find the thread) so I just wanted a straightforward definitive answer for rulings during casual games and tourneys.

The answer is yes but you have to remember the reason..

Only abilities can be negated. Modifiers are not abilities. For example, Herods temple is not cbn, the instead portion is a modifier but is conditional upon a discard ability which can be negated.

This is why I was curious for an example.

Watchman, are you asking if "Herod's Temple" were to be Negated, would the modifier continue?

Quote from: kariusvega on May 16, 2018, 10:02:45 AM

The answer is yes but you have to remember the reason..

Only abilities can be negated. Modifiers are not abilities. For example, Herods temple is not cbn, the instead portion is a modifier but is conditional upon a discard ability which can be negated.

This is why I was curious for an example.

Watchman, are you asking if "Herod's Temple" were to be Negated, would the modifier continue?

To which the answer is no because the condition of the instead is not being fulfilled (based on a discard ability which can be negated)

So I'm a bit unclear here. 

Example:

My opponent has the 'wicked' lost soul which grants the first evil enhancement he plays regardless of protect abilities.

I have Moses CoW in territory negating lost souls.

I attack with AUtO and exchange for Gideon.

Is the first evil enhancement my opponent plays regardless of protect abilities because it is a modifier?

if abilities that make other things CBN are themselves CBN because they are really modifiers, I don't see why an ability that makes things regardless of protection should be any different

if abilities that make other things CBN are themselves CBN because they are really modifiers, I don't see why an ability that makes things regardless of protection should be any different

That's not the reason that CBx granting abilities are CBN. They are CBN because there is a line in the REG for each one saying that it is CBN. There is no such line for modifiers as a whole. If TPTB decide they want all modifier granting abilities to be CBN, they would need a rule change to do so.

This is why I wanted an elder to respond. 

All modifiers are CBN.

This does not make Herod's Temple CBN, because the instead modifier modifies it's own ability, so it replaces the triggering event rather than waiting until all other abilities complete, but the modified ability is still negateable.

All modifiers are CBN.

This does not make Herod's Temple CBN, because the instead modifier modifies it's own ability, so it replaces the triggering event rather than waiting until all other abilities complete, but the modified ability is still negateable.

So what does this mean for The god of This World then?  His "Instead" ability is CBN, no matter what - so when my opponent draws via his/her special ability, it gets Insteaded, and therefore the only question is whether my opponent draws 1 (TgoTW doesn't get negated later) or 0 (TgoTW later gets negated)? 

Are all abilities that grant any modifier CBN? If so the REG is currently inconsistent with the rules.

Saying something is "inconsistent" isn't helpful you, us or the rest of the community. Showing how you feel it's inconsistent, especially with reference to specific "inconsistent" parts is constructive criticism we'd be glad to hear and possibly address.

Quote from: Kevinthedude on May 17, 2018, 04:32:17 PM

Are all abilities that grant any modifier CBN? If so the REG is currently inconsistent with the rules.

Saying something is "inconsistent" isn't helpful you, us or the rest of the community. Showing how you feel it's inconsistent, especially with reference to specific "inconsistent" parts is constructive criticism we'd be glad to hear and possibly address.

The intent was to get an answer to the question before explaining the resulting inconsistency to avoid confusing the discussion if the answer was negative but that's a good point.

The only place in the REG it mentions abilities that grant modifiers being CBN is the individual sections for each CBx entry. IMO instead would need a line saying that the act of insteading cannot be negated and RoP would need a line saying that the granting of RoP cannot be negated to be consistent with the similar lines in the CBx entries.

The REG also says weapons are normal Enhancements in battle - we haven't gotten a new version released yet.

I didn't mean to insist that all updates happen immediately, I mainly bring this up because I think it's still a subject of debate for some people whether the REG actually needs to be changed in this area.

Quote from: Josh on May 17, 2018, 04:27:23 PM

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 17, 2018, 04:06:53 PM

All modifiers are CBN.

This does not make Herod's Temple CBN, because the instead modifier modifies it's own ability, so it replaces the triggering event rather than waiting until all other abilities complete, but the modified ability is still negateable.

So what does this mean for The god of This World then?  His "Instead" ability is CBN, no matter what - so when my opponent draws via his/her special ability, it gets Insteaded, and therefore the only question is whether my opponent draws 1 (TgoTW doesn't get negated later) or 0 (TgoTW later gets negated)? 

It's X-1 or 0, but yes. That's stated in the definition of instead (Special Conditions -> 5th bullet).

I feel like I'm completely misunderstanding but does this mean that KoT+Moses=opponent always draws 0?

Why do we even call them modifiers at all?  Cant they just all be abilities and then you have abilities that grant CBx be CBN?  That seems a lot simpler...

Dear all,

I think it would be great if everything was marked "CBN" if it was CBN (even if it was just a modifier). The reason is because it is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between a special ability and a modifier (see previous discussion on Peter (EC) -i.e. you have to parse out his ability into part 1 & 2, where the first part is negatable, but the second part is not. This is very confusing.)

Here are some other examples:

Michael (Ki) is a clear MODIFIER:  "Enhancements played with Michael cannot be negated" - so this would be inherently CBN, right?

However, Captain of the Host (Ki) is a SPECIAL ABILITY:  "Negate all non weapon class special abilities except banding". So, am I right to assume Captain of the Host would be negatable?

Now, here is an interesting example -- King of Tyrus. One version (Priests) appears to be negatable, whereas the other version (Warriors) appears to be CBN. What is the difference? Only a slightly different wording. The Priest version states: "Negate all special abilities on characters and enhancements (except this special ability)." This one is written in active voice, so it is a special ability, hence it would be negatable, because it does not say "CBN" on it. The other version, Warriors, is written in passive voice: "All special abilities on character cards and enhancement cards except this one are interrupted and prevented. Battle is determined by the numbers." So, this one appears to be a MODIFIER, not an ability, so it would be CBN.

Is this correct?

Thank you