Author Topic: Are all modifiers CBN? (Read 5915 times)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2018, 02:11:21 PM »

Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 02:05:44 PM

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on May 17, 2018, 04:15:10 PM
Why do we even call them modifiers at all? Cant they just all be abilities and then you have abilities that grant CBx be CBN? That seems a lot simpler...

Dear all,

I think it would be great if everything was marked "CBN" if it was CBN (even if it was just a modifier). The reason is because it is sometimes very difficult to tell the difference between a special ability and a modifier (see previous discussion on Peter (EC) -i.e. you have to parse out his ability into part 1 & 2, where the first part is negatable, but the second part is not. This is very confusing.)

Here are some other examples:

Michael (Ki) is a clear MODIFIER: "Enhancements played with Michael cannot be negated" - so this would be inherently CBN, right?

However, Captain of the Host (Ki) is a SPECIAL ABILITY: "Negate all non weapon class special abilities except banding". So, am I right to assume Captain of the Host would be negatable?

Now, here is an interesting example -- King of Tyrus. One version (Priests) appears to be negatable, whereas the other version (Warriors) appears to be CBN. What is the difference? Only a slightly different wording. The Priest version states: "Negate all special abilities on characters and enhancements (except this special ability)." This one is written in active voice, so it is a special ability, hence it would be negatable, because it does not say "CBN" on it. The other version, Warriors, is written in passive voice: "All special abilities on character cards and enhancement cards except this one are interrupted and prevented. Battle is determined by the numbers." So, this one appears to be a MODIFIER, not an ability, so it would be CBN.

Is this correct?

Thank you

Both versions of KoT are abilities and are fully negateable. Voice doesn't change whether a line of text is a modifier or ability.

Watchman · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2018, 02:12:23 PM »

Looks like you’re having trouble with abilities vs modifiers. All a modifier is is wording that modifies abilities. CBN, CBI, and CBP are modifiers. They are not abilities. Modifiers are telling you that the previous ABILITY cannot be X. In your KoT examples his ability is just an ability in both versions. He has no modifiers at all since there are no CBx printed on his cards. Same thing with Captain. His and KoT ability can be prevented or interrupted. Kings and AW Michael, on the other hand, has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

emonier · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2018, 02:24:06 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 23, 2018, 02:12:23 PM

Looks like you’re having trouble with abilities vs modifiers. All a modifier is is wording that modifies abilities. CBN, CBI, and CBP are modifiers. They are not abilities. Modifiers are telling you that the previous ABILITY cannot be X. In your KoT examples his ability is just an ability in both versions. He has no modifiers at all since there are no CBx printed on his cards. Same thing with Captain. His and KoT ability can be prevented or interrupted. Kings and AW Michael, on the other hand, has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

OK, that makes sense.
Thank you.

emonier · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2018, 02:41:25 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 23, 2018, 02:12:23 PM

Kings and AW Michael, on the other hand, has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

Watchman, I just wanted to clarify something. In your last statement you wrote: Kings and AW Michael has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

Yes, that is true, but just because there is a modifier (somewhere) within a character's special ability (total text), that does not guarantee that his WHOLE special ability is CBN. There are cards in which part of the special ability must be parsed out from the modifier portion in order to determine which part is CBN and which is not (case in point = Peter, EC).

That's all I am saying.

Thanks

emonier · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2018, 03:11:08 PM »

Demetrius the Siversmith is another good example.

DtS' special ability contains 3 sentences. The first 2 sentences are special abilities, so they are NEGATABLE, but the last sentence is a modifier, so it is CBN.

It would be wrong to claim that ALL of DtS' special ability was CBN, just because of the modifier present in the third sentence.

Thanks

Watchman · « **Reply #30 on:** May 23, 2018, 03:13:28 PM »

Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 03:11:08 PM

Demetrius the Siversmith is another good example.

DtS' special ability contains 3 sentences. The first 2 sentences are special abilities, so they are NEGATABLE, but the last sentence is a modifier, so it is CBN.

It would be wrong to claim that ALL of DtS' special ability was CBN, just because of the modifier present in the third sentence.

Thanks

Actually that’s a bad example because his modifier says “Acts 19 cards cannot be negated.” Since he is an Acts 19 card his entire card ability cannot be negated.

Watchman · « **Reply #31 on:** May 23, 2018, 04:46:53 PM »

Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 02:41:25 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 23, 2018, 02:12:23 PM
Kings and AW Michael, on the other hand, has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

Watchman, I just wanted to clarify something. In your last statement you wrote: Kings and AW Michael has a modifier since it has CBN wording.

Yes, that is true, but just because there is a modifier (somewhere) within a character's special ability (total text), that does not guarantee that his WHOLE special ability is CBN. There are cards in which part of the special ability must be parsed out from the modifier portion in order to determine which part is CBN and which is not (case in point = Peter, EC).

That's all I am saying.

Thanks

I understand. But keep in mind that when EC Peter was designed not all of his abilities were intended to be CBN, just the Acts enhs played on him. So while I understand it can be a little confusing at first about modifiers being CBN themselves (a couple of years ago I asked the same question on the forum), once you know that modifiers are CBN then you’ll know that abilities like Peter’s can be partially negatable and partially not. Stephen is another example. His hand reveal and shuffling of evil doms is negatable, but the second part “Acts enhancements CBN” is not. So if something like Covenant with Death is active Stephen’s hand and shuffle ability is prevented but not any Acts enhs; or if KoT blocks Stephen then the shuffling is negated. But if Stephen plays an Acts enh like Speak with Power then KoT neither prevents it nor is able to interrupt it with an evil enh because Acts enhs CBN (a modifier that’s CBN).

SEB · « **Reply #32 on:** May 23, 2018, 05:15:31 PM »

REG:
"A modifier is part of a special ability that modifies abilities or effects. Modifiers are not
themselves abilities, but alter the behavior of abilities or effects. "

This is why a "Modifier" cannot be negated (which the REG says only interacts with "Abilities").
REG Modifier Listing:
-Cannot Be Interrupted
-Cannot Be Prevented
-Cannot Be Negated
-Instead
-Limit
-Regardless

What helped me in the discussion was: each of the above on the list of modifiers (which I suppose is exhaustive) interacts with an ability, and they cannot be "undone" (read "negated") for practical purposes (it can cause odd loops, or allow you to "break" intended game play, etc). Because modifiers are interacting with an ability, they cannot be stopped and really have no need to be stopped, but the ability could be (unless the modifier protects the ability) stopped.

Think of a modifier as more of a "describer" than an "action." Such as "Cannot be Negated:" the Game is telling the players that the qualified object cannot be "Negated" in a similar way when the game is telling a player that when they draw a Lost Soul, they put it in their Land of Bondage. The game constantly tells players things to do or not to do (Draw phase: draw three cards, Upkeep: remove or add set-aside counters, etc.). Modifiers are another tool the game uses to communicate to the players "Do something" or "Don't do something" specifically relating to abilities.

Well, as I understand the verbiage in the REG and the practical experience given by playing with others.

emonier · « **Reply #33 on:** May 23, 2018, 09:45:24 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 23, 2018, 03:13:28 PM

Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Demetrius the Siversmith is another good example.

DtS' special ability contains 3 sentences. The first 2 sentences are special abilities, so they are NEGATABLE, but the last sentence is a modifier, so it is CBN.

It would be wrong to claim that ALL of DtS' special ability was CBN, just because of the modifier present in the third sentence.

Thanks

Actually that’s a bad example because his modifier says “Acts 19 cards cannot be negated.” Since he is an Acts 19 card his entire card ability cannot be negated.

Wow, nice catch. Thank you.

I still think it would be clearer if the card said "Acts 19 cards (including this one) cannot be negated."

Don't you think?

Thanks

*NOTE: I would just like to see more clarity (on the cards themselves) about what can be negated and what cannot. I don't like being surprised in tournaments when people say things like: "Oh, you can't negate that because of x, y, z..." And, I have heard people argue that Peter (EC) cannot be negated, which is simply not true.

Watchman · « **Reply #34 on:** June 02, 2018, 06:08:33 PM »

Revisiting this, unless I missed it, I don’t believe my original question was answered. I would like a definitive answer from the elders as we all need to know the answer for tournament judging and playing.

Thanks

Jeremystair · « **Reply #35 on:** June 02, 2018, 06:16:51 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on May 17, 2018, 04:06:53 PM

All modifiers are CBN.

This does not make Herod's Temple CBN, because the instead modifier modifies it's own ability, so it replaces the triggering event rather than waiting until all other abilities complete, but the modified ability is still negateable.

Here's your answer!

Watchman · « **Reply #36 on:** June 03, 2018, 11:07:50 AM »

What about this example? If Moses was in battle what all would he be negating:

Idols of Canaan

“If a black Canaanite is in a territory, you may convert a Hero in that territory to black. Limit once. Protect evil Canaanite humans from multi-brigade Heroes.”

I know the protect ability is negatable, but what about the first two sentences? Is only the “limit once” CBN, or what the limit is modifying as well as the limit modifier?

And by the way, what does the “limit once” mean exactly? Limit once per game? Per turn? Per round?

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #37 on:** June 03, 2018, 12:38:47 PM »

Moses doesn't negate Artifacts, but for the non-CBX modifiers, the modified ability is negateable. So you can negate everything but the limit.

"Limit once" means limit once until reset to face value. It does get discarded when the limit is reached. Older cards like Burial Shroud use "limit twice" in the Play As.

Watchman · « **Reply #38 on:** June 03, 2018, 12:50:27 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on June 03, 2018, 12:38:47 PM

Moses doesn't negate Artifacts, but for the non-CBX modifiers, the modified ability is negateable. So you can negate everything but the limit.

"Limit once" means limit once until reset to face value. It does get discarded when the limit is reached. Older cards like Burial Shroud use "limit twice" in the Play As.

Sorry, I got Idol Worship (the evil enh) mixed up with this one. Thanks for the answer.

Concerning the “limit once” question, I knew that lol. I drew a blank when asking that. It’s the same with Shimei’s taunt.

Thanks

megamanlan · « **Reply #39 on:** June 10, 2018, 03:33:07 PM »

Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 09:45:24 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on May 23, 2018, 03:13:28 PM
Quote from: emonier on May 23, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Demetrius the Siversmith is another good example.

DtS' special ability contains 3 sentences. The first 2 sentences are special abilities, so they are NEGATABLE, but the last sentence is a modifier, so it is CBN.

It would be wrong to claim that ALL of DtS' special ability was CBN, just because of the modifier present in the third sentence.

Thanks

Actually that’s a bad example because his modifier says “Acts 19 cards cannot be negated.” Since he is an Acts 19 card his entire card ability cannot be negated.

Wow, nice catch. Thank you.

I still think it would be clearer if the card said "Acts 19 cards (including this one) cannot be negated."

Don't you think?

Thanks

*NOTE: I would just like to see more clarity (on the cards themselves) about what can be negated and what cannot. I don't like being surprised in tournaments when people say things like: "Oh, you can't negate that because of x, y, z..." And, I have heard people argue that Peter (EC) cannot be negated, which is simply not true.

To that point, your suggestion is making unnecessarily complex. Because that would imply that ability modifiers without that text don’t grant themselves that modifier. The only thing to remember is that in general effects that grant modifiers are one of the only effects that are inherently CBN. That means Michael (Wa/Ki/AW) is CBN naturally, No Staw’s granting of CBN or RoP is CBN, Herod’s Temple/Chamber of Angels’ instead is CBN & the limitation on Unholy Writ is CBN by the nature of each of the cards.

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Author Topic: Are all modifiers CBN? (Read 5915 times)

Kevinthedude

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

emonier

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

emonier

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

emonier

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

SEB

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

emonier

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Jeremystair

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

RedemptionAggie

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

Watchman

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?

megamanlan

Re: Are all modifiers CBN?