Author Topic: Another tricky MP question (Read 24592 times)

The Guardian · « **Reply #50 on:** October 29, 2008, 10:36:32 PM »

Players must make an honest attempt to stop a player who is close to winning. Ergo, players must also give other players the chance to make that attempt. By asking this, an opponent cannot say "He didn't give me a chance to do anything..."

The Schaef · « **Reply #51 on:** October 29, 2008, 10:43:49 PM »

And then there's always the REG...

"Revealing a card makes the card visible to all players."

"A card can only be revealed based on a special ability."

Master KChief · « **Reply #52 on:** October 29, 2008, 10:58:30 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on October 29, 2008, 10:36:32 PM

Players must make an honest attempt to stop a player who is close to winning. Ergo, players must also give other players the chance to make that attempt. By asking this, an opponent cannot say "He didn't give me a chance to do anything..."

right, and this can easily be done without asking players if they wish to do anything. simply by giving each player reasonable time to respond to a rescue attempt works just fine. if i see a defending player reaching for a lost soul to give up, and i wish to play something that will stop the rescue attempt, i will say 'hold on a second...' and proceed to play the card i wished to play. we shouldnt have to hold another persons hand and walk them through the steps of playing something to stop a rescuing player. in my opinion thats table talk, because you're helping another player be aware of something they might have missed. tournaments are always decided by the player that makes the fewest mistakes.

i just think its ironic that the whole reason that clause is in the rulebook was because of me...

The Guardian · « **Reply #53 on:** October 29, 2008, 11:06:33 PM »

Quote

tournaments are always decided by the player that makes the fewest mistakes.

I disagree. Tournaments are often won by the player who makes the fewest mistakes. However, a player making a mistake at a crucial moment can also decide a tournament. I have been on both sides of this many times (benefitting from the mistake and losing because of the mistake).

Master KChief · « **Reply #54 on:** October 29, 2008, 11:17:09 PM »

correct me if im wrong: but if you benefit from it, then its not a really a mistake, is it?

The Guardian · « **Reply #55 on:** October 29, 2008, 11:32:31 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 29, 2008, 11:17:09 PM

correct me if im wrong: but if you benefit from it, then its not a really a mistake, is it?

Perhaps you misunderstood me, I was referring to when other people made a mistake and it either benefitted or hurt me.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #56 on:** October 30, 2008, 12:49:21 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 29, 2008, 10:43:49 PM

And then there's always the REG...
"Revealing a card makes the card visible to all players."
"A card can only be revealed based on a special ability."

Nice find Schaef. This discussion now switches from whether there is a rule against flipping one of the cards in your hand backwards, to whether there should be a rule as such.

Before I did not support the creation of such a rule, and thought the game would be better without adding such rule. However, now that I know such a rule already exists, I retract my support for such actions. And I don't care about the issue enough to argue for the rule's removal. Ah well.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #57 on:** October 30, 2008, 01:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on October 29, 2008, 07:33:13 PM

exactly. the only way to curb cheating table talk is to just nip it in the bud and ban ALL table talk. that solves all problems.

No the only way to truly curb cheating is to simply ban multi-player. Don't get me wrong here. I love multiplayer, but if a group of players wants to make sure that someone wins, they can talk outside the table and figure out a plan to circumvent the rest of the people. No it isn't fair, but it happens.

I honestly have NO issue with table talk as long as it isn't plotting against one person. Reminding someone they have unholy writ up to use vs the person about to win (Cough Guardian

) is seemed as rude table talk but I don't see much issue with it, yes it could cost the rescuer the game, but the card was on the table in plain sight for everyone to see. Honestly if people want to gang up on me (It happens in t2 with me, people don't like my anb, they don't wanna block) it is their choice, It may suck to be me but eh saying they can't attack someone who they view as a thread seems a bit unfair to them. (Sorry guardian, I know you usually get ganged up against in multi).

As for flipping cards around in hand, as long as everyone can see them that is fine with me. If I know you have a card I can figure out a way around it alot easier. Yes it DOES play mind games but...that happens in multiplayer anyways. Honestly removing table talk is making it t1 2p with ...less talking about the game...and more people.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #58 on:** October 30, 2008, 03:47:07 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on October 30, 2008, 01:39:24 PM

As for flipping cards around in hand, as long as everyone can see them that is fine with me.

The issue that I was bringing up was how to rule from a host's perspective. Since the REG has been quoted as saying this practice is not allowed, a host would be required to prevent it. If you want to do this among friends, that's your prerogative. But, in a tournament, the answer is, "No. It's not fine."

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #59 on:** October 30, 2008, 04:50:20 PM »

There is NO rule against table talking. Those who think it should be a rule are very loud, but that does not make them correct. Table talk has always been a part of MP and it always will be whether or not it's legal (and right now, it is legal). If you get butthurt over table talk, stop playing MP. Don't try to change the dynamics of the game to suit your personal taste.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #60 on:** October 30, 2008, 05:25:32 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 30, 2008, 04:50:20 PM

There is NO rule against table talking. Those who think it should be a rule are very loud, but that does not make them correct. Table talk has always been a part of MP and it always will be whether or not it's legal (and right now, it is legal). If you get butthurt over table talk, stop playing MP. Don't try to change the dynamics of the game to suit your personal taste.

Before you light the torches and gather your posse, I was talking about holding your cards backwards. That's why I quoted only RR's comments about flipping cards. There is a rule about revealing your cards.

Master KChief · « **Reply #61 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:06:45 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on October 30, 2008, 04:50:20 PM

There is NO rule against table talking.

point me to the rule that says table talking IS allowed.

Quote

Table talk has always been a part of MP and it always will be whether or not it's legal (and right now, it is legal).

just because its 'always' been a part of mp doesnt necessarily make it right. again, show me the rule 'legalizing' table talk.

Quote

Don't try to change the dynamics of the game to suit your personal taste.

ironic, seeing how this entire post was biased.

seriously, i lolololololol'd when i read this. take this brash attitude to any official poker tournament, and even UTTER the words 'table talk'...see what happens.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #62 on:** October 31, 2008, 10:11:14 AM »

I vote we ban T1 Multi.

Kirk

TheMarti · « **Reply #63 on:** October 31, 2008, 11:28:40 AM »

Wow. I feel like we're arguing the most common sense thing ever.

My 2 cents. Multiplayer is ALL about strategy. That's how it rolls.

I dont want to sit silent at a multiplayer game. Part of the fun of multiplayer is laughing about the ridiculousness that ensues. Esp. in booster.

So, lighten up. Geez.

~Marti

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #64 on:** October 31, 2008, 11:41:53 AM »

Quote from: The Marti on October 31, 2008, 11:28:40 AM

Wow. I feel like we're arguing the most common sense thing ever.

My 2 cents. Multiplayer is ALL about strategy. That's how it rolls.

I dont want to sit silent at a multiplayer game. Part of the fun of multiplayer is laughing about the ridiculousness that ensues. Esp. in booster.

So, lighten up. Geez.

~Marti

.

Quote

point me to the rule that says table talking IS allowed.

Every other thing we are not allowed to do has a rule backing it.... but this doesn't. Put the logic with it. If they ever remove table talk from MP it becomes alot more boring.

Master KChief · « **Reply #65 on:** October 31, 2008, 12:51:19 PM »

Quote

Every other thing we are not allowed to do has a rule backing it.... but this doesn't.

we already know this statement as completely false. does it say im not allowed to burn my own cards during a match? or rip up my lost souls so you cant rescue them?

im not oppossed to merely talking during mp games. in most other card games (even non-CCG games, as this comes from a seasoned pinnochle and spades player), 'table talk' is a degenerate term often referred to cheating. saying ANYTHING during a match that could possibly benefit any other player in the game defaults to table talk, and is not allowed. if someone doesnt see that they have an unholy writ up to stop a rescuing player, then thats their own fault. again, we're not to hold someone elses hand and walk them through the steps of stopping other players, ESPECIALLY at the tournament level. im completely fine with 'table talk' during a friendly mp match, because yes, it can be fun. but at a tournament level, its wrong to do so. tournaments are designed to filter out the players that make the most mistakes and those that do not.

TheMarti · « **Reply #66 on:** October 31, 2008, 01:17:24 PM »

And this is an example of taking tournaments too seriously. There are some people who need to realize tournaments are for fun and fellowship, and it's not all about winning. It's fun to win, and sure, I'm competitive, but I don't let that control my enjoyment of being with my brothers and sisters in Christ. If you're going to be so serious about it that it ruins the fun for other people, find a game that is more focused on competition. This game is based on fun and fellowship, and that's never going to change.

Master KChief · « **Reply #67 on:** October 31, 2008, 03:38:35 PM »

taking tournaments too 'seriously'? are you serious? what exactly do you THINK a tournament is? heres what dictionary.com has to say:

tour·na·ment /Pronunciation Key –noun 1. a trial of skill in some game, in which competitors play a series of contests: a chess tournament.

a trial of SKILL. do you think its a players personal skill to be helped by another player? no. its also not fair to the other players in a tournament either. if redemption was not designed with at least an ounce of competitive edge to it, it would not be (first and foremost) a game, and it would not have a tournament structure either. sure, 'fun and fellowship' is all cool and warm and fuzzy and all, but dont spoil it for the rest that like to be competitive either.

again, show me an ounce of truth to your assertations that 'table talk' is printed anywhere in the rulebook, and i'll be obligated to end this conversation. otherwise, i see no way any of your arguments hold any water.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #68 on:** October 31, 2008, 03:41:11 PM »

Now would be a good time for one of the Photoshop masters to create a picture of a mug with "My Arguments" written on it.

STAMP · « **Reply #69 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:14:27 PM »

LOL, at 2005 Nats in MN every game was non-stop table-talking in booster draft. In my last game there was this kid named Joe, I think, who was so exhausted and strung out on Mountain Dew that he never STOPPED talking. Shride was also very talkative that day and he's a playtester.

But in most every instance it was all good-natured and I never got the impression that anyone felt cheated.

Master KChief · « **Reply #70 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:27:03 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on October 31, 2008, 04:14:27 PM

LOL, at 2005 Nats in MN every game was non-stop table-talking in booster draft. In my last game there was this kid named Joe, I think, who was so exhausted and strung out on Mountain Dew that he never STOPPED talking. Shride was also very talkative that day and he's a playtester.

But in most every instance it was all good-natured and I never got the impression that anyone felt cheated.

i was at that nationals, and i actually was the winner for booster draft. i was the guy with the broken leg. know what i heard at my last table? silence. i could hear a pin drop.

dont get me wrong, i have nothing against friendly talking during a game, as long as it doesnt pertain to the game. that is what most of us refer to as 'table talk', and is a form of cheating in most any other card game.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #71 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:27:52 PM »

Redemption is not about winning. Redemption is about fellowship. That's been made very clear.

Master KChief · « **Reply #72 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:36:13 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on October 31, 2008, 04:27:52 PM

Redemption is not about winning. Redemption is about fellowship. That's been made very clear.

ok, then i guess everytime we sit down for a redemption match, we'll just skip the whole 'game' part and do the fellowhip part, k?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #73 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:39:46 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on October 31, 2008, 04:27:52 PM

Redemption is not about winning. Redemption is about fellowship. That's been made very clear.

So we should award prizes to the people who are having the most fun, rather than who wins?

I think that there are two different avenues being addressed here - playing with friends and playing in major tournaments. Most of us likely act differently in these two circumstances.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #74 on:** October 31, 2008, 04:43:14 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 31, 2008, 04:39:46 PM

Quote from: Janissary on October 31, 2008, 04:27:52 PM
Redemption is not about winning. Redemption is about fellowship. That's been made very clear.

So we should award prizes to the people who are having the most fun, rather than who wins?

I think that there are two different avenues being addressed here - playing with friends and playing in major tournaments. Most of us likely act differently in these two circumstances.

I wouldn't be opposed.

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Author Topic: Another tricky MP question (Read 24592 times)

The Schaef

TheMarti

TheMarti