Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Josh on June 08, 2011, 09:21:03 AM
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If I attack with a giant slayer, say, Abishai, and my opponent blocks with Goliath, can I add another hero to battle? Goliath says "Opponent may present a new hero", and he doesn't have a condition that no heroes be in battle. And the hero I add will be "new" whether or not a hero is already in battle.
Goliath (P)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 10 / 10 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Return all Heroes in battle to territory (except giant-slayers). Opponent may present a new Hero. Negate all band, draw, and play abilities. Cannot be negated.
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If nothing else is stopping it, Goliath's "Negate all band... abilities" would stop that from being possible, so no - you would not be able to add another hero.
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But Goliath is CBN so he cannot negate himself. ::)
My instincts tell me that this works but I could be missing something.
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Oh, yeah... Good call!
And good question, jmhartz!
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I would think the intent here is that the "Opponent may present a new hero" is triggered by Goliath kicking the old hero(es) out of battle. If Goliath doesn't kick your hero(es) out of battle for whatever reason (because they are giant-slayers or are protected from withdraw, etc.) then you don't get to "present a new hero." Just my two cents worth. :-)
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I would think the intent here is that the "Opponent may present a new hero" is triggered by Goliath kicking the old hero(es) out of battle. If Goliath doesn't kick your hero(es) out of battle for whatever reason (because they are giant-slayers or are protected from withdraw, etc.) then you don't get to "present a new hero." Just my two cents worth. :-)
That was, obviously, the intent, but intent doesn't matter (see Split Alter).
I don't see why this wouldn't work.
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That was, obviously, the intent, but intent doesn't matter (see Split Alter).
That's one Split Altar buck you owe the kitty. (Great idea from YMT, btw).
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That was a legit Split Alter back up. Usually we just question the reasons behind a ruling change with it...
I'd like to see that post though, it really would be a great idea...
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It seems sense the old hero is still in battle, that a new hero cannot be presented. And sense banding is negated, a new hero cannot be banded in.
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It seems sense the old hero is still in battle, that a new hero cannot be presented. And sense banding is negated, a new hero cannot be banded in.
New=/=different. A new hero does enter battle. The hero is new to the battle. And, as Gabe mentioned, Goliath's ability is CBN, and he's the one with the banding ability, so it works.
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I agree that you should be able to bring an additional hero into battle...of course, if Abishai has initiative vs. Goliath, I'm not sure why you'd want to bring someone else in to give the initiative away...
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It wouldn't be a band ability in this case anyway.
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If you are talking about the new hero coming into battle when the original hero is still there, then it would be a banding ability. Anytime a card increase the number of characters on your side of the battle to greater than 1, then it is considered a banding ability in addition to whatever else it is.
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Really? That's the first I've heard of that. I've always ruled that "add to battle" was different then "band." (i.e. Unknown Nation)
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Really? That's the first I've heard of that. I've always ruled that "add to battle" was different then "band." (i.e. Unknown Nation)
Unknown Nation is a band ability. However, things like 12FG can't negate it if it is in the artifact pile.
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Why not? Is this a "defaults to" issue? I thought cards defaulted to "in play"
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Why not? Is this a "defaults to" issue? I thought cards defaulted to "in play"
Hmm. This same issue occurred during Warriors when TSA and the like negated... everything. I thought that was fixed by a rule, but apparently, they just added "in battle" to TSA, et all.
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FBTN characters like TSA, Moses, etc. negate all characters and enhancements in play, not just in battle. Otherwise the prevent part of their abilities wouldn't do much since characters aren't in battle until their SA's have had a chance to complete.
TFG would negate UN if he is still in battle, since he negates all banding, not just character and enhancement banding SA's. So he would stop The Silver Trumpets as well. I don't believe he would stop GoH though, since that is set aside.
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I agree that you should be able to bring an additional hero into battle...of course, if Abishai has initiative vs. Goliath, I'm not sure why you'd want to bring someone else in to give the initiative away...
Well one thing I thought of was adding Asahel/Jael/Ehud to battle to add a second EC to battle... But since Goliath would still be in battle, would CTB abilities be negated on the second hero to enter battle? Is CTB "banding" if an EC is already in battle?
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CTB played after an EC is in battle would kick that EC out of battle, I believe, so Asahel would kick Goliath out to choose someone else.
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CTB played after an EC is in battle would kick that EC out of battle, I believe, so Asahel would kick Goliath out to choose someone else.
Give Goliath a taste of his own medicine.
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CTB played after an EC is in battle would kick that EC out of battle, I believe, so Asahel would kick Goliath out to choose someone else.
Give Goliath a taste of his own medicine.
Poetic justice, I say. ;)
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CTB played after an EC is in battle would kick that EC out of battle, I believe, so Asahel would kick Goliath out to choose someone else.
unless that person has wall up :D
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A quick nuance I want to nip in the bud. It is true that all "add to battle" abilities are banding abilities when a character is already in battle. However, not all abilities that add a character to battle when a character is in battle are banding abilities. The best (and perhaps) only example of this is exchange cards. Perpetual Priesthood will be unaffected by HHI.
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FBTN characters like TSA, Moses, etc. negate all characters and enhancements in play, not just in battle. Otherwise the prevent part of their abilities wouldn't do much since characters aren't in battle until their SA's have had a chance to complete.
Territory class enhancements played a turn or even a phase before like Herods Treachery CBN right?
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*sigh* I look forward to the day when we'll stop having to explain this rule every time placed enhancements are mentioned.
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*sigh* I look forward to the day when we'll stop having to explain this rule every time placed enhancements are mentioned.
Me, too.
@Hobbit - The placing of the placed enhancement is CBN starting the phase after it's placed. The ability on the card can still be negated anytime.
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There was a time when I found it confusing as well. I think what causes the confusion is that only part of the ability is CBN (the placing) after the initial phase. The ongoing portion of the ability can still be negated. That's the only example I can think of where part of a special ability can be negated and another part cannot. Most of the time all of the text on the card is either CBN or none of it is.
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It's not the only example, just the most prevalent one.
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I just thought it odd that TSA would be able to negate Herod's Treachery in a territory.