Author Topic: Announcement of Errata for Grapes of Wrath (Read 4500 times)

Professoralstad · « **on:** October 25, 2010, 03:58:31 PM »

Grapes of Wrath currently has the ability:

"Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle."

Rob has confirmed that this will be changed to:

"Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle."

This is to avoid the possibly confusing situation of what might happen if either
A) a Hero is protected from shuffle by Grapes of Wrath (think John the Baptist/Samson/Isaac/Birth Foretold) or
B) Grapes of Wrath is played, but no evil card is discarded (perhaps because the discard was insteaded) and therefore no shuffle occurs.

This could be confusing, because you could start a new battle without it being officially a side battle, and it could be argued that you might get two successful rescues that turn if conditions are right. In order to avoid this, the errata is worded such that the second battle can happen if and only if there are no heroes remaining in the original battle.

We hope that this doesn't change too much about how GoW is actually played, it is just a safeguard against odd situations that could be increasingly common with Disciples cards, and it will allow us to be able to be more flexible when making cards (i.e. a Hero that is protected from shuffle, etc.) could be made without worrying about the effect of Grapes of Wrath.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:02:33 PM »

Y U DO THIS?!

No support. Grapes has just gone from being a mediocre dom that doesn't go in most of my decks to a very mediocre dom that doesn't go in most of my decks.

(Had this erratta been given a while earlier I would have lost a game I won. My opponent played Grapes when I attacked with my Birth Foretold-Isaac)

Red · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:24:26 PM »

This is not needed.

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:32:30 PM »

takes away from strategy.... unneeded

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:35:24 PM »

I don't even get how this accomplishes B

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:35:26 PM »

Overreaction much? This change will honestly only effect you in the first sense if your opponent made a misplay, something you shouldn't rely on. In the second sense it just clears something up that would be argued for 20 pages before the thread was made.

I was joking. I wouldn't care if they errata'd to have Grapes say "Holder may take a snack break".

STAMP · « **Reply #6 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:42:01 PM »

I've never played a game with Grapes, and don't follow along like I used to. Does Grapes work if played during a side battle?

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #7 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on October 25, 2010, 04:35:26 PM

Overreaction much? This change will honestly only effect you in the first sense if your opponent made a misplay, something you shouldn't rely on. In the second sense it just clears something up that would be argued for 20 pages before the thread was made.

I was joking. I wouldn't care if they errata'd to have Grapes say "Holder may take a snack break".

total wyn

Professoralstad · « **Reply #8 on:** October 25, 2010, 04:47:52 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on October 25, 2010, 04:35:24 PM

I don't even get how this accomplishes B

It's not meant to accomplish B. You can play Grapes before there are any evil cards in battle, or the blocker might be saved by Herod's Temple/Judas' Plot. In either case, you didn't pay the cost for the shuffle, so the shuffle doesn't occur which is all B is saying. But there is no cost associated with beginning a new battle. We just added a condition, so we don't have to work on defining how the two ongoing battles, neither of which would be a side battle, would interact.

The M · « **Reply #9 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:06:52 PM »

Why do the Prof's pick you to be the messanger "bearing bad news?"
Are they trying to get you killed or get us to be angry with you or what?

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:10:22 PM »

Quote from: The M on October 25, 2010, 05:06:52 PM

Why do the Prof's pick you to be the messanger "bearing bad news?"
Are they trying to get you killed or get us to be angry with you or what?

For the same reason that Norm was chosen to do the firing for his company.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:19:29 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on October 25, 2010, 04:42:01 PM

I've never played a game with Grapes, and don't follow along like I used to. Does Grapes work if played during a side battle?

It does, but there is no current rescuer in a side battle, so it just shuffles the battle.

The Warrior · « **Reply #12 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:22:37 PM »

Kill the Messanger

browarod · « **Reply #13 on:** October 25, 2010, 05:24:30 PM »

Well, you're safe Prof Alstad! They all want to kill the "messanger", so it's good that you're actually a messenger

.

The Guardian · « **Reply #14 on:** October 26, 2010, 12:57:54 PM »

Quote from: Red on October 25, 2010, 04:24:26 PM

This is not needed.

Quote from: Cpt.Jaeger on October 25, 2010, 04:32:30 PM

takes away from strategy.... unneeded

To be honest, if you don't see why this is needed then you don't understand the situation...

Cpt.Jaeger · « **Reply #15 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:07:53 PM »

oh, i get why it's needed, but it will simply be less fun if you remove the possibility of two simultaneous confusing battles without rules that govern how they are played

hehe

The Guardian · « **Reply #16 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:25:12 PM »

For some, that's fun. For an Elder, that's a headache

STAMP · « **Reply #17 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:34:43 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 25, 2010, 05:19:29 PM

Quote from: STAMP on October 25, 2010, 04:42:01 PM
I've never played a game with Grapes, and don't follow along like I used to. Does Grapes work if played during a side battle?

It does, but there is no current rescuer in a side battle, so it just shuffles the battle.

But here's where I have a problem. A "rescue attempt" is directly related to a turn or battle phase, courtesy of our rules. It seems incongruous to rule this card relates only to a battle. During a side battle there are two battles going on during the battle phase. So during the battle phase there is still a current rescuer in existence, ergo the first condition of the trigger is met.

Keep the rules in mind when you consider my response. This is consistent with current rulings relating to The Long Day creating another battle phase. To maintain consistency, all of the following should relate to a battle phase:

rescue attempt
current rescuer
rescuing hero

Is there a current rescue attempt in progress during this battle phase?
Yes.
Is there a current rescuing hero in play during an active rescue attempt?
Yes.

Bazinga! The trigger is met.

I say it works during a side battle.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #18 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:43:52 PM »

If there is a current rescuer during a side battle, then cards that say "in battle" should refer to cards that are in both battles, since the original characters would be in battle (the Heroes that are helping the current rescuer do the current rescuing, and the EC's that are helping the current blocker do the current blocking) as are the characters in the side battle. The logic behind saying that "in battle" = "in the battle in which the card is played", which has been standard for side battles for years, relates to the fact that during a side battle the main battle is put on hold. Hence, there is no current rescuer during a side battle, because at the time Grapes is played, all rescuing is put on hold.

Feel free to do your grumpy old man routine all you want, but I really don't think you're going to win this one.

Grapes is a perfectly good way to end a side battle between EC's without causing extra headaches.

STAMP · « **Reply #19 on:** October 26, 2010, 01:50:55 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 26, 2010, 01:43:52 PM

If there is a current rescuer during a side battle, ....

Your entire argument started off on the wrong foot. As I said, to maintain consistency on all cards "current rescuer" relates to the battle phase.

Is there a rescue attempt in progress during the side battle? Careful how you answer.

I'm not grumpy today.

Just correct.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #20 on:** October 26, 2010, 02:01:30 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on October 26, 2010, 01:50:55 PM

Your entire argument started off on the wrong foot. As I said, to maintain consistency on all cards "current rescuer" relates to the battle phase.

What other cards say current rescuer? I don't follow your line of thinking here.

Quote

Is there a rescue attempt in progress during the side battle? Careful how you answer.

No. It is on hold until the side battle ends.

STAMP · « **Reply #21 on:** October 26, 2010, 02:32:44 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 26, 2010, 02:01:30 PM

Quote from: STAMP on October 26, 2010, 01:50:55 PM
Your entire argument started off on the wrong foot. As I said, to maintain consistency on all cards "current rescuer" relates to the battle phase.

What other cards say current rescuer? I don't follow your line of thinking here.

False Wisdom, Grapes of Wrath, Death & Hades, Land Made Waste, and Mask of Vanity

"rescuing player": Christina Suing Another, Idle Gossip, LS Acts 14:4, LS Proverbs 16:28

Quote from: Professoralstad on October 26, 2010, 02:01:30 PM

Quote from: STAMP on October 26, 2010, 01:50:55 PM
Is there a rescue attempt in progress during the side battle? Careful how you answer.

No. It is on hold until the side battle ends.

By that logic, ongoing abilities that trigger based on rescue attempt get turned off. Off the top of my head, Jerusalem and Lystra are impacted.

Is a rescue attempt still in play during the battle phase while a side battle is fought? Yes.
Is the player that initiated said rescue attempt still considered the rescuing player? Yes.
It's logical to maintain consistency that the "current rescuer" or "rescuing hero" is still in play and gets triggered.

Choose your headache:

Either maintain consistency and deal with one card that can only be played once per game,

Or maintain consistency and sever the relationship between "battle phase" and "rescue attempt" and deal with The Long Day, endless side battles, etc.

Or maintain inconsistency, which might not be an issue if the rulebook and REG are changed to include three states of a battle phase: rescue attempt, battle challenge, or neither.

5000: My responses on this thread. (for the Guardian)

STAMP · « **Reply #22 on:** October 26, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »

One final point: since the special ability for creating a side battle is an instant ability on a card played in a rescue attempt, the start and resolution of a side battle complete the instant ability and is therefore still part of the rescue attempt.

Red · « **Reply #23 on:** October 27, 2010, 11:49:57 AM »

Kill the messenger!

News:

Author Topic: Announcement of Errata for Grapes of Wrath (Read 4500 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!

browarod