Author Topic: Judas' Plot  (Read 1120 times)

Offline DrowningFish

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Judas' Plot
« on: March 01, 2014, 08:16:36 AM »
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In a game right now, I have Judas' Plot on my NT evil charecter.  my oppenent throws down SoG and NJ, I choose the Son of God Card to be discarded.  Does New Jeruselam now become useless? or does he still get one? How does this work?
Praeceps keeps capturing my Peter.

Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 09:51:19 AM »
-1
Judas' Plot would send Son of God under deck, not to the discard pile.  I would say that New Jerusalem doesn't get a lost soul because SoG was insteaded (making it as if it were never played).  NJ isn't a cost (it says "and", not "to"), though, so it might go back to hand instead of being wasted (since SoG was essentially never played).

Offline DrowningFish

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 09:54:41 AM »
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Judas' Plot would send Son of God under deck, not to the discard pile.  I would say that New Jerusalem doesn't get a lost soul because SoG was insteaded (making it as if it were never played).  NJ isn't a cost (it says "and", not "to"), though, so it might go back to hand instead of being wasted (since SoG was essentially never played).
Sorry meant underdeck.  Didnt mean discarded. dunno why i said that.. Thanks
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 11:12:43 AM »
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Whatever dom is not sent under deck still rescues a soul.  You do not undo the 'playing' of a card, just instead the effect.  Therefore, you may still play New Jerusalem with SoG with Judas' Plot active, even if SoG were insteaded and underdecked.  Again, you still played it with SoG, even if SoG did not have its full effect.

What should be done in this case is to instead the New Jerusalem, so that they only get 1 rescue with dominants (NJ cannot rescue on its own and now takes up a spot in deck).

Found you the diamond ruling in the 12-page rough that was the original argument on this.

Offline DrowningFish

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 11:54:37 AM »
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Whatever dom is not sent under deck still rescues a soul.  You do not undo the 'playing' of a card, just instead the effect.  Therefore, you may still play New Jerusalem with SoG with Judas' Plot active, even if SoG were insteaded and underdecked.  Again, you still played it with SoG, even if SoG did not have its full effect.

What should be done in this case is to instead the New Jerusalem, so that they only get 1 rescue with dominants (NJ cannot rescue on its own and now takes up a spot in deck).

Found you the diamond ruling in the 12-page rough that was the original argument on this.
but the whole point of instead is to not do the intended action..does that mean if he plays AotL the evil character still gets discarded? Nj HAS to be played along with SoG
Praeceps keeps capturing my Peter.

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 12:00:49 PM »
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but the whole point of instead is to not do the intended action..does that mean if he plays AotL the evil character still gets discarded? Nj HAS to be played along with SoG

Instead does not mean the card was not played.  It means the ability never happened.

With Angel of the Lord, the discard never happened because of the instead.

With SoG+NJ, the one you choose never rescued a soul because of the instead, but both were still played.

NJ only has to be played with SoG.  You can only instead one of them, so the other rescues no matter which one it is.  No contradiction or inconsistency.

Offline Praeceps

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 12:02:00 PM »
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That's correct, but in order for SoG to be insteaded, it still has to be played. NJ's ability doesn't hinge on SoG working, it just has to be played at the same time.
Just one more thing...

Offline DrowningFish

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 12:04:25 PM »
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You're saying it "insteads" the ACTION  of playing NJ the dominants SA happen then you instead one of them?
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Offline Praeceps

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 12:06:33 PM »
+1
No. SoG and NJ are played. You can instead one of them. Your opponent will get one LS and the Dom you instead will go back to deck without rescuing. They were both played simultaneously, but only one got to take effect.
Just one more thing...

Offline DrowningFish

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2014, 12:12:43 PM »
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So the smart choice would've been to instead NJ?
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2014, 12:13:58 PM »
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So the smart choice would've been to instead NJ?

Yes.  Then it goes back to deck, takes up a spot, and can't rescue anymore.  SoG going back would be able to rescue again later.

Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2014, 04:34:32 PM »
-2
However, Plot isn't a "may", and since SoG must be played before NJ, SoG must be the target of the Plot's instead.  It cannot target NJ (unless there are two, obviously).

Offline Redoubter

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Re: Judas' Plot
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2014, 04:41:06 PM »
+1
However, Plot isn't a "may", and since SoG must be played before NJ, SoG must be the target of the Plot's instead.  It cannot target NJ (unless there are two, obviously).

Actually, they are played simultaneously, by every ruling we have for SoG+NJ.  And as per the specific ruling on this case I linked to (which was approved by Rob), that means you can target either.

NJ is a legitimate target for the instead on Plot.

EDIT: -1ing this post doesn't mean this is wrong, sorry ;)  Rob confirmed it, and it meshes with all other SoG+NJ rulings :)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:08:39 PM by Redoubter »

 


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