Author Topic: Angel of the Lord vs. Grapes of Wrath (defensively) (Read 9085 times)

Gohanick · « **on:** July 16, 2009, 01:29:03 PM »

Rescuer Rob has Angel of the lord in his hand and goes out for a rescue with a 5/5 Hero

Defender Dan has a 3/3 Evil character and wants to play Grapes of Wrath to shuffle Rob's Hero back to deck (Rob has the most souls)

Defender Dan brings his evil character into battle.

Who has initiative to play the first dominant?

The Guardian · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:36:03 PM »

Hmmm, interestinly enough I believe it would be Dan as he gets the first chance to respond to his own action (blocking).

happyjosiah · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:39:01 PM »

Dominants are slapjackey. There's no way around it. Never has been.

See also:
We both are at 4 redeemed souls, both holding Son of God, no lost souls in play, someone draws a lost soul.

In my opinion, if it is your turn, you should get precedence to play dominants (and going clockwise around the table, in multiplayer.) It would solve a lot of this. Slapjack not only adds a dexterity element to an otherwise strategic game, it also is problematic when considering players who are elderly, younger, or have handicaps that may prevent them from quickly slamming cards down on the table.

ETA: Just to clarify, in this situation, I believe the correct ruling to be that it is merely whoever plays the dominant first. I just think that it should not be this way.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:45:58 PM »

Precedent goes to whoever would have normal initative. However, in this case, Rob should make a verbal check, something along the lines of hey, it's goign to be your initiative, but... etc. At this point Dan would interject his Grapes of Wrath play.

In Josiah's case, whoever draws the lost soul will always redeem, if only for the sake that you can place the Son of God down with the soul simultaneously. However, there is a REG ruling somehwere that states the player cuasing the situation gains precedence to change it.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:47:15 PM »

Guardian is correct that most judges have stated previously that they would rule in favor of the person who person who controlled the most recent action (blocking in this case) if both players dropped their dominants close enough together that there was an argument over who was first.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:47:20 PM »

There's no such thing as "initiative to play a Dominant". If both players play their Dominant at the same time then the tie goes to the person who responded to their own action (Dan in the example). If one play hesitates and the other plays their Dominant, it's over. The faster player gets it.

adamfincher · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:48:25 PM »

whichever hits the table. i love rts cuz it knows exactly who clicked it first.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:49:02 PM »

While your techincally right, that doesn't change the fact that Rob should be verbally confirming iniative and Dan should respond. I feel like confirming iniative is in the rulebook, but I'm almost certainly wrong considering I don't have it on me right now.

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:52:18 PM »

Quote from: adamfincher on July 16, 2009, 01:48:25 PM

whichever hits the table. i love rts cuz it knows exactly who clicked it first.

This is not true. If players click simultaneously or even close to it, it will show up as both players getting theirs down first on their own screen.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:54:44 PM »

This goes right back to the whole big hero with AotL against little hero with initiative and a discarding enhancement. There's something along the lines of saying "I'm going to AotL anything you block with" but then of course I'll block with several characters banded together even if I DON'T get initiative because now I know that. Grr.

adamfincher · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:58:24 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 16, 2009, 01:52:18 PM

Quote from: adamfincher on July 16, 2009, 01:48:25 PM
whichever hits the table. i love rts cuz it knows exactly who clicked it first.

This is not true. If players click simultaneously or even close to it, it will show up as both players getting theirs down first on their own screen.

nope, u look at the Chat screen. that tells who played it first. case rested.

adamfincher · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2009, 01:59:06 PM »

Quote from: Janissary on July 16, 2009, 01:49:02 PM

While your techincally right, that doesn't change the fact that Rob should be verbally confirming iniative and Dan should respond. I feel like confirming iniative is in the rulebook, but I'm almost certainly wrong considering I don't have it on me right now.

they are called DOMINANT for a reason.

Gohanick · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:00:19 PM »

Is Rob/Dan Required to perform a verbal initiative check first before any dominants are played?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:00:35 PM »

Your wrong on both accounts. Read Justin's post again. He's right. As for Dominants, they still require a verbal check to interrupt the normal flow of the game. Also DOMINANTS really aren't that dominant seeing as they can't interrupt abilities, etc.

Quote from: Gohanick on July 16, 2009, 02:00:19 PM

Is Rob/Dan Required to perform a verbal initiative check first before any dominants are played?

I would say yes but I am unsure of rulebook backing.

adamfincher · « **Reply #14 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:02:03 PM »

they can still be played before anything else whenever you feel like it unless an effect takes place first.

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:03:37 PM »

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 16, 2009, 01:54:44 PM

This goes right back to the whole big hero with AotL against little hero with initiative and a discarding enhancement. There's something along the lines of saying "I'm going to AotL anything you block with" but then of course I'll block with several characters banded together even if I DON'T get initiative because now I know that. Grr.

This is no longer an issue because of the initiative check that must take place. An EC cannot play an enhancement (unless a special ability allows him to) until the rescuer grants initiative.

Quote

nope, u look at the Chat screen. that tells who played it first. case rested.

Nope. If we both put a card in play at the same time, it's going show up on my screen like I played mine first and on your screen it will say you played yours first. I've had that happen many times.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #16 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:04:12 PM »

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is your supposed to, even if it's not a rule per se, verbally confirm the flow of the battle. If you want to interrupt that, you make it known, you don't just slapjack.

Gabe · « **Reply #17 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:08:08 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on July 16, 2009, 02:03:37 PM

Nope. If we both put a card in play at the same time, it's going show up on my screen like I played mine first and on your screen it will say you played yours first. I've had that happen many times.

Justin is correct. I've seen it multiple times too.

Quote from: Janissary on July 16, 2009, 02:04:12 PM

Yes, but that's not the point. The point is your supposed to, even if it's not a rule per se, verbally confirm the flow of the battle. If you want to interrupt that, you make it known, you don't just slapjack.

This is true for initiative and playing enhancements. It's not true of Dominants. There is no such thing as "initiative" for Dominants. You play them whenever you want (and another ability isn't completing). You don't need to ask permission to play your Dominants. Whoever plays it first gets to use the ability first.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:10:18 PM »

This happens in my play group alot:

ex.

Tie game 3-3

Alex: RA's with a hero

Daniel: Blocks with a larger villain

Alex: Plays a Card that allows him to draw, he gets a lost Soul, he plays draws another card

Both: SoG/NJ

I always rule that the person reacts to their own actions first, So I give the game to Alex. Further:

Daniel: RA with a Hero

Alex : Blocks with a same sized EC (Mutual Destruction)

Daniel trys to play an enhancement, While Alex drops CM. I rule for Alex, he gets first chance to respond to his action.

Is this how it should be? Is this the way it currently plays?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:10:52 PM »

Quote from: Gohanick on July 16, 2009, 02:00:19 PM

Is Rob/Dan Required to perform a verbal initiative check first before any dominants are played?

No, you are not REQUIRED to do a verbal check, but it is in your best interest. Most hosts have ruled that if you play your dominant before doing a verbal check that they will make you take it back and then your opponent will gain the advantage of knowing what your cards are and what you want to do with them.

So it is better to do the verbal check first, and then play the dominant.

Gohanick · « **Reply #20 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:11:10 PM »

So you would agree Brian that if both dominants hit the table first, then Dan's would be ruled in favor of?

adamfincher · « **Reply #21 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:11:34 PM »

though you can just say hey hold up a min if they r goin 2 fast 4 u by playing enhancments b4 u grant nish.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #22 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:13:29 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on July 16, 2009, 02:08:08 PM

There is no such thing as "initiative" for Dominants. You play them whenever you want (and another ability isn't completing). You don't need to ask permission to play your Dominants. Whoever plays it first gets to use the ability first.

This is correct.
And stupid.

adamfincher · « **Reply #23 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:15:53 PM »

Quote from: happyjosiah on July 16, 2009, 02:13:29 PM

Quote from: BrianGabe on July 16, 2009, 02:08:08 PM
There is no such thing as "initiative" for Dominants. You play them whenever you want (and another ability isn't completing). You don't need to ask permission to play your Dominants. Whoever plays it first gets to use the ability first.

This is correct.
And stupid.

this is correct
and it works perfectly fine.

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** July 16, 2009, 02:18:37 PM »

Quote from: Gohanick on July 16, 2009, 02:11:10 PM

So you would agree Brian that if both dominants hit the table first, then Dan's would be ruled in favor of?

If it's a tie, then, yes.

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Author Topic: Angel of the Lord vs. Grapes of Wrath (defensively) (Read 9085 times)