Cactus Game Design Message Boards

With respect, why did this ruling come into being with the "national promo"? This does not make sense...either a card should be in play or it is not. I thought clarity of rulings were supposed to make the game simpler?

-Can I discard face down card with Abom?
No. Since Abom doesn't allow you to target any card in a territory (due to the LS restriction) then it doesn't apply.

Just to make sure I understand the logic here...  Let's say that I set Ahimelek aside from hand with Ambush.  The next turn, Ahimelek enters battle and remains face down, as Ambush instructs not to flip it up until an evil character is presented.  My opponent blocks with Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and another Greek is in play).  Even though we both know that my face-down card is a hero, my opponent nonetheless cannot discard it?

Ambush - "Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn.  Hero returns to territory face down.  Hero enters battle face down with access to any site.  When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up."

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - "If another Greek Evil Character is in play, discard a Hero. Opponent may discard a card of matching brigade from hand or territory instead. Cannot be negated."

I really don't get why people are so up in arms about Split Altar. I made the original design of the card. After changes were made to it, I also told the "elders at the time" that it didn't work as intended, before it went to print (I was assured that it did). I have more reason to be miffed about it than anyone but I've moved on.

Split Altar - "Shuffle all Artifacts of each opponent into owners’ deck. You may play the next Enhancement. Cannot be negated."

How exactly do you propose we make that shuffle the Artifact pile without giving it errata (which Rob said he will not do)? If it said "shuffle all Artifacts in play of each opponent" then it would work based on this new change. If there was a top down way to "fix" Split Altar, I assure you that I would support it. Thus far I have not seen a way, and honestly, it's not that big of a deal.

But don't all SA automatically direct to "in play" unless otherwise specified?  Since face down cards are now in play, and Split Altar doesn't say "active", it should target the full pile.

To be clear, what Gabe said isn't the reason Split Altar doesn't work the desired way. The reason it doesn't work as desired is because it doesn't say all cards in an Artifact Pile/territory/play/etc. The goal of the definition was not to change any rules, the goal was to have a rule that explained a justification for the status quo (that ANB shuffled face down cards, that face down ECs were flipped face up when they entered battle, that face down Heroes don't have brigades to play TC enhancements, etc, etc).

FWIW, I don't see how allowing SA to shuffle face down artifacts really makes it that much better. Most T1 decks use no more than ~5 artifacts? Ones that use more usually use Temples/Charms/etc. that actually make Split Altar relatively useful (since it can shuffle all of the artifacts in multiple places). Regardless of whether or not it shuffles piles, the most useful part would have to be the ability to negate and shuffle active arts, right? The fact that it can be played off of HT and allows you to play the next enhancement should make it even better. Yet I haven't seen it in a tournament deck except for once, and I sincerely doubt I would see it in a tournament deck if it were changed.

Also to be clear, the Elders have nothing against the card. It's not that we want to make sure it never works the way seemingly everyone wishes it does. As Gabe pointed out, he tried to "fix" it a long time ago. It's just that the only ways to make it do what everyone wishes it would are errata or a rule change. Errata is out, as the policy is that errata is only used to unbreak cards, not make them better or worse. And every rule change has consequences that can affect many, many cards. If we allowed Split Altar to shuffle artifact piles, we'd have to allow Christian Martyr and AotL to discard Ambushed/Site Guard Heroes. Would that be so bad? Maybe not, but then we have made Split Altar marginally better and other cards marginally worse. So it was decided that we would maintain the status quo that has worked out well to this point, with the lone exception of Split Altar becoming a major source of contention for a reason that I've never really been able to figure out.

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To be clear, what Gabe said isn't the reason Split Altar doesn't work the desired way. The reason it doesn't work as desired is because it doesn't say all cards in an Artifact Pile/territory/play/etc.

ANB really needs banned.

If it wasn't for the crotchety, old, semi-retired player out in the NW, maybe it would be. But he has a very powerful lobby that continually supplies Rob with peanut M&Ms, so it's not going to happen.

But seriously, if cards were ever to be banned, ANB would more than likely be one of the first. Trust me when I say that having to go back and fix the same card over and over again (thanks, Kirk  ) isn't how most of the Elders would prefer spending their time. And I wouldn't be silly enough to say that this errata is the last one we will ever need or anything like that. But the fact is, Rob has stated he doesn't like the idea of new players opening a pack, getting a shiny new card, and then finding out that they can't use it. I would have been especially sad if I wasn't allowed to use the ANB I drafted in Sealed at 2011 Nats, which helped me win a game.

Rob has stated he doesn't like the idea of new players opening a pack, getting a shiny new card, and then finding out that they can't use it.

How about a new player opening an ANB and having no idea that it doesn't work the way it says it does on the card?

But the fact is, Rob has stated he doesn't like the idea of new players opening a pack, getting a shiny new card, and then finding out that they can't use it.

Here's the issue I have with this though - any kid who gets involved with the game enough to find out it isn't legal is going to quickly find out that the card has been bastardized beyond recognition, which is going to have its own problems. The fact that the ability only kicks in during a rescue attempt and causes the card to be removed from the game (among lesser things that most new players probably won't encounter) means that the card doesn't even work the way it is printed anyway. Rob may not like the idea of a new player opening a pack and getting a card they can't use, but I'm not sure that opening a pack and getting a card that they have no idea how to use it is much better.

Not to me, what does the word "cards" have to do with anything?

It's not "cards" it's "artifact piles". The logic goes that Split Altar wouldn't target face-down artifacts because it doesn't specify a specific location, just a specific card type, which isn't covered under the new rules.

Quote from: Chris on April 18, 2013, 02:58:20 PM

Rob may not like the idea of a new player opening a pack and getting a card they can't use, but I'm not sure that opening a pack and getting a card that they have no idea how to use it is much better.

Maybe not, but it also probably isn't that much worse either. Ultimately, banning a card can only be done by one person, and one person only. Rob has given his reasons for not doing so in the past, and while those reasons may someday change, they have yet to do so.

Rob has expressed a more... enlightened attitude towards the possibility of banning cards. I'm not even suggesting we start banning cards to balance the meta, I'm just suggesting we ban ANB for the very specific reason that it causes problems and no longer does anything close to what is printed on it.

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2013, 03:06:58 PM

Quote from: Chris on April 18, 2013, 02:58:20 PM

Rob may not like the idea of a new player opening a pack and getting a card they can't use, but I'm not sure that opening a pack and getting a card that they have no idea how to use it is much better.

Maybe not, but it also probably isn't that much worse either. Ultimately, banning a card can only be done by one person, and one person only. Rob has given his reasons for not doing so in the past, and while those reasons may someday change, they have yet to do so.

Rob has expressed a more... enlightened attitude towards the possibility of banning cards. I'm not even suggesting we start banning cards to balance the meta, I'm just suggesting we ban ANB for the very specific reason that it causes problems and no longer does anything close to what is printed on it.

I understand the idea of banning ANB but i feel like its dangerous.  its a slippery slope when cards start getting banned.  I prefer not banning anything and trying to find ways to counter cards like auto.  its more strategic and requires higher levels of thinking and planning.  if we start banning cards it becomes easy to simply say "that card is broken ban it" and we end up eliminating strategy and deck building concepts

I understand the idea of banning ANB but i feel like its dangerous.  its a slippery slope when cards start getting banned.  I prefer not banning anything and trying to find ways to counter cards like auto.  its more strategic and requires higher levels of thinking and planning.  if we start banning cards it becomes easy to simply say "that card is broken ban it" and we end up eliminating strategy and deck building concepts

This is exactly why I believe banning ANB is so safe. It's not being done for any other reason than the card has caused serious issues, and it seems inevitable that more issues will come up. Additionally, the card doesn't even do what it says (and hasn't for some time). It would be a ban for simplicity's sake.

I knew someone would bring up the other promos, but they were in a different era, and SA was bad out of the gate. That is my only point with that. I don't consider it any sort of good - I consider cards like LuG (that just totally discard the artifact instead of shuffling it) better than it. That's a matter of opinion, though. But this conversation has happened again and again, they're never going to fix Split Altar no matter what is or isn't argued.

Also, I agree with Chris and Blake - it doesn't do what it says. Why do we still have it? If we're going to errata the junk out of it, why shouldn't we ban it? I don't know. These changes are causing more problems then solving them.

I knew someone would bring up the other promos, but they were in a different era, and SA was bad out of the gate. That is my only point with that. I don't consider it any sort of good - I consider cards like LuG (that just totally discard the artifact instead of shuffling it) better than it. That's a matter of opinion, though. But this conversation has happened again and again, they're never going to fix Split Altar no matter what is or isn't argued.

And my opinion is that it would still be almost as bad if it did shuffle artifact piles. Maybe a few more people would use it, but not many I would guess. In most situations, decks that have a lot of artifacts are criticized, since only one can be used at a time. And artifacts that are crucial to a deck strategy tend to be easily fetched, even after being shuffled. Even most T2 players use fewer than 8 artifacts, and that's including multiples of certain ones and considering the decks are twice as big.

Also, I agree with Chris and Blake - it doesn't do what it says. Why do we still have it? If we're going to errata the junk out of it, why shouldn't we ban it? I don't know. These changes are causing more problems then solving them.

It does do (almost) everything that it says. It shuffles all cards in play, hands and set-asides. It allows you to begin a new turn. It allows everyone to draw 8 cards. The only thing it doesn't do that it used to be able to is be abused in a variety of ways that are bad for the game. 

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 18, 2013, 02:26:08 PM

But the fact is, Rob has stated he doesn't like the idea of new players opening a pack, getting a shiny new card, and then finding out that they can't use it.

Is it really any better to have a new play open a pack, get a shiny new card, then figure out it no longer does what's printed on the card?

Haha, you almost got me there. Nice one.