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If a card with a an ability that needs to be triggered is discard but not negated during a battle phase can it not still be triggered during that battle phase?

Questions

Rescuer enters against someone playing Golden Cheribum. GC is discarded and then then the rescuer draws a card. GC is then done at the conclusion of special abilities to allow the defender to search for a card.  Why is this the case?
When
An NT hero enters with Herod's temple active. During the battle phase the defender discards Herod's temple without negating it.  Blocker then plays Christian Martyr in the same battle phase but the rescuer cannot instead the discard?

I am struggling to follow why those situations are not ruled the same way. Either both can trigger if discarded and not negated or neither can trigger right?

Yes I know GC is CBN which is why I specified that HT wasn't negated only discarded. (Perhaps by Abomb or something)

Where did you hear that you can trigger GC after it's discarded? I haven't heard that or ever seen it played that way and I would think that it couldn't trigger if it's no longer in play.

Either way, I definitely agree that triggers should be treated consistently.

I've never heard of triggers fizzling the card dies so I agree with Redoubter.

I guess I just always assumed that only ongoing abilities lasted until the end of the phase. The idea that you can trigger the ability on something when it's not in play just seems really odd to me.

The thing is that triggers are still ongoing abilities, regardless of also being triggers (by definition).

The thing is that triggers are still ongoing abilities, regardless of also being triggers (by definition).

Where is that in the rules? The only things I could find having anything similar to "trigger"were-
1. The definition of "Triggered": Some ongoing special abilities are delayed until a specified game action takes place. These special abilities are then activated or ‘triggered’. Triggered special abilities are ongoing abilities of the form ‘if X happens then Y’.

This indicates some ongoing abilities have triggers but not necessarily that all triggers are ongoing.

2. The definition of "Manually Triggered Ability": A manually triggered ability is an ongoing ability that is directly triggered by the holder. Triggered ongoing abilities only appear on Fortresses and cards being treated as Artifacts. They are triggered immediately on cards being treated as Enhancements. Manually triggered abilities can be identified by the phrase “when holder chooses”. The phrase only applies for Covenant and Curse cards when they are used as Artifacts. If the condition for the trigger is met, the holder must be given the choice to activate the ability before another card can be played.

This one specifies having the wording "when holder chooses" which doesn't apply to any cards in our situation. This might be an outdated specification, but that's what it says currently.

Arrthoa:
"Here is what the REG defines Triggered as:
Some ongoing special abilities are delayed until a specified game action takes place. These special abilities are then activated or ‘triggered’. Triggered special abilities are ongoing abilities of the form ‘if X happens then Y’.

So it is ongoing in a way, but is not always active until X happens"
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/off-topic/new-set-card-previews!!!!/msg505766/#msg505766

jmhartz:
"Delayed triggered abilities like GI aren't exactly the same as ongoing abilities like Protect, Immune, etc.  But it has always been ruled (as far as I can remember) that the trigger waiting to activate is "ongoing" and can be targeted exactly the same as any other ongoing ability."
 . . .
Browarod:
"So, just to clarify and confirm, all triggers always and forever, regardless of what they're paired with, are always ongoing?"
Redoubter:
"An ability is ongoing if it is not something that completes when the card is played, but has an ongoing component.
Quote from: The REG
Instant Abilities
Instant abilities are special abilities that complete when the card is played, and do not have ongoing
effects.

Ongoing Abilities
Ongoing abilities are abilities that have an ongoing effect on the game or specific cards and are
not completed until the phase in which they are used has ended. They are distinguished from
Instant Abilities, which have an instant effect on the game or specific cards, and then complete
when that effect takes place. "
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/reach-vs-great-image/msg521441/#msg521441

Here are a few things I found, I'm still trying to find more definitive rulings. There have been several posts since I started writing this so I'll just go ahead and post this and hope it's not worthless.

Ok thank you!
By the way Redoubter said to carry the discussion here, so whether I took that out Of context I'm not sure, but that's why I posted that here.

Note that both definitions there of triggered abilities indicate that they are ongoing abilities.  I'm not sure if you are still saying that triggers are not ongoing.  They have to be, otherwise you couldn't use them.

This indicates some ongoing abilities have triggers but not necessarily that all triggers are ongoing.

~||~

I get what you're saying, it just doesn't really make sense to me that a card not in play can trigger an effect, and I've never seen or heard of anyone using Herod's Temple the same phase it was discarded, or Golden Cherubim after being discarded. Does that necessarily mean you're wrong? No, people could have been playing it wrong. I just don't think that, if what you say is actually the current rule, that it should be the rule.

Take Obadiah's Caves. If it's discarded but not negated during battle and you play Joseph in Prison against my green prophet, suddenly a non-existent fortress is trying to instead that to "here". So would the prophet be placed on Caves in the discard pile? That's what the trigger is telling you to do and I don't think there's explicitly a rule saying cards in the discard pile can't hold other cards (identifiers are active in all locations, after all). At the very least it's confusing and weird.

I don't presume to think that my opinion should mean the rule is changed, haha, just trying to understand.

Gabe and I were discussing this at a recent play night. I believe the conclusion that we came to is that manually triggered (If x MAY y) cannot be carried out if the card with the ability is no longer in play. As both Golden Cherubim and Herod's Temple are manual triggers neither one would work after being discarded.

Will a conclusion to this question be posted here? A new thread?

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on April 23, 2015, 08:44:22 PM

Gabe and I were discussing this at a recent play night. I believe the conclusion that we came to is that manually triggered (If x MAY y) cannot be carried out if the card with the ability is no longer in play. As both Golden Cherubim and Herod's Temple are manual triggers neither one would work after being discarded.

If this is true then a discard ability becomes a functional negate ability in certain situations. Right?

Not so much of a negate, it would be closer to a prevent, since it won't undo anything already done.