Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 24, 2011, 01:32:43 PM

Blah blah blah.

Everything is wrong except the last statement.  The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate.  From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook.  It's a simple as that.

I think people are misinterpreting the use of the word "activation". From my interpretation, and the usage I was using, an enhancement "activates" when you play it on a character. Yes, cards can have delayed triggers (Lay Down Your Life, etc.), but they "activate" when you first play them. The triggers simply carry out part of the special ability when tripped, they don't "activate" the card again.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. I was referring to when the special ability is carried out. Simple misunderstanding.

The rulebook says that enhancements can only be played on a character of matching brigade and alignment. The only exceptions are cards that state otherwise ("hero may use enhancements of any good brigade this battle", "regardless of brigade", etc.). Agur and Co. do not state otherwise, so there is no reason to believe they change the default way enhancements activate.
That is true. However, the enhancement doesn't "activate" on the hero. It's activated by Agur (haha, now that I understand jmhartz's point, he was right). The trigger is when the hero goes into battle, this happens. Not it is played when the hero goes into battle. The enhancement only needs the trigger to be met, no other requirements are put on it. The enhancement isn't played by the hero. It's special ability is triggered by the hero. Because Agur says so.

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Quote from: STAMP on March 24, 2011, 02:41:35 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 24, 2011, 01:32:43 PM

Blah blah blah.

Everything is wrong except the last statement.  The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate.  From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook.  It's a simple as that.

Eating food is wrong. Making statements without explaining anything really doesn't get us anywhere.

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 24, 2011, 03:53:37 PM

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

So, just to be clear...if you Gold Shield a character that has an enhancement that was placed by Agur and Co. the enhancement will not activate. Correct?

On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.

Step one: place ANB on someone.
Step two: Grapes
Step three: they can't attack you until they can get rid of GoJ and King Reheboam

I think the threat of massive combo is much more effective than the combo itself.

Here's the way I see it:

The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:

Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.

Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, and there has been elder support of both sides. What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?