Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BubbleBoy on August 16, 2009, 07:56:10 AM
-
I know this question has been asked and answered before, but I forget: If I activate Chariot of Fire (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/chariotoffire.htm), make a rescue attempt, and play A New Beginning (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/anewbeginning.htm), do I get to shuffle my discarded Heroes?
-
The last ruling on these boards was a very tentative, "Yes, CoF would work."
This exact question has been raised about half a dozen times on the boards and I don't think any of the PTB has ever offered an opinion either way. So take the above with a grain of salt and don't be surprised if the host rules the other way.
-
If no one had replied to this post, that's what I would have though. :P Honestly though, I don't think I've ever actually used ANB in my life before. I was just curious if there was an official rule yet.
-
There is no "official' rule but I'd rule no. By the time the battle ended the new turn has started and cof is no longer active.
-
Yeah, now that I think of it ANB sort of forces the game into a new phase, without the battle having ended yet. ...So CoF would probably fizzle. ...
-
Let me pose how I see it. Don't consider it an official ruling yet - wait till others chime in to support/reject it.
Chariot of Fire was active when the initial battle began. I assume here it was a rescue attempt. It names "following your rescue attempt" as an ongoing ability. Ongoing abilities must be negated in order to not go into effect. A New Beginning is played - and no negate is played. A New Beginning ended the battle (which was a rescue attempt) and turn, and allowed the player to start a new turn. At the end of the original battle, Chariot of File completes its ability and shuffles Heroes from the discard pile into the draw pile. I see the Heroes being shuffled into the draw pile at the same time that the other cards are to be shuffled by A New Beginning. It does not matter where Chariots of Fire currently is sitting.
I believe it works simply because it was an ongoing ability that was never negated. The same has been true of Chariots of Fire was discarded during a battle (but not negated) - it still would allow the holder to shuffle Heroes into the draw pile.
Mike
-
Is "following your rescue attempt" considered an ability? It isn't what the card actually does. I always thought CoF was a shuffle ability, which is instant.
-
"following your rescue attempt" is a trigger that allows the SA it is associated with to be activated. A trigger is like taking the safety lock off a switch - it allows the switch to work. This particular trigger says IF shuffle is activated (there was a rescue attempt) and WHEN it is to be activated (after the battle).
Mike
-
But is after battle during or after battle resolution? Is it is after, Chariots can't shuffle with ANB - it would not have been triggered yet.
-
How can you start a new turn if you didn't complete the battle that existed? Perhaps I have to imply a resolution (like stalemate) since everyone is being shuffled. However, there must be an end of battle since there was a battle. It doesn't go poof, does it? We don't believe it poof.
Mike
-
I've been re-examining this and I would like to say that if CoF can activate, doesn't that mean playing ANB with Gifts of the Magi active = a 16 card handwhen the new turn starts?
-
Hey,
I've been re-examining this and I would like to say that if CoF can activate, doesn't that mean playing ANB with Gifts of the Magi active = a 16 card handwhen the new turn starts?
There is an implied "end the battle" ability on A New Beginning, because as Mike said you can't start a new turn unless you end what's going on in the current one. The current ruling is that the implied "end the battle" ability comes before the all players draw 8 ability, thus the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off. Although based on the wording on the card I can see the validity of an argument the other way.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
...the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off.
You mean CoF?
-
Hey,
...the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off.
You mean CoF?
Nope, I mean Hidden Treasures. At the end of battle resolution lingering effects from the shuffled artifacts fade. Chariot of Fire's effect happens during battle resolution, which is before the end of battle resolution, so it happens before the lingering effects fade thus it works. The draw 8 (which would trigger Hidden Treasures and allow for starting the next turn with 16 cards) happens after the end of battle resolution, so it happens after the lingering effects fade and thus it doesn't work.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
COUGH COUGH Gifts of the Magi COUGH COUGH
-
Yeah, Hidden Treasures has an instant ability that activates at the beginning of the battle, so you must be thinking of something else.
-
Like maybe...
COUGH COUGH Gifts of the Magi COUGH COUGH
-
Bump. this came up just now and we need to solve this before another tourney comes up soon over way
-
A New Beginning - If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.
Since this question came about ANB received it's 2nd errata which really clears all this up. Just like Forgotten History and Wonders Forgotten, ANB ends the battle. That means as part of resolving the card you complete battle resolution.
Are there any characters left in battle? If yes, determine who won.
Are there any souls left in play? If yes, determine if one was rescued.
Was Chariot of Fire active? If yes, shuffle Heroes into the deck.
Was Gifts of the Magi active? Doesn't matter, the phase ended before cards were drawn and it's no longer in play so the ability is done.
-
Also: Rain Becomes Dust.
-
Loving those first two questions Gabe ;D
-
Loving those first two questions Gabe ;D
I was thinking of the wonder twins from Austin when I wrote it. :-*
Also: Rain Becomes Dust.
If you apply this to RBD what do you come up with?
-
Also: Rain Becomes Dust.
If you apply this to RBD what do you come up with?
Epic pwnage with CTR. My idea for Naz abuse was ruined, so this is all I've got.
-
Rain becomes dust would not be active during the draw phase of the new turn. Only if you cold protect RBD from shuffle could you end up with 8 cards and watch them d/c the top 8 cards from their draw pile.
-
A New Beginning - If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.
Since this question came about ANB received it's 2nd errata which really clears all this up. Just like Forgotten History and Wonders Forgotten, ANB ends the battle. That means as part of resolving the card you complete battle resolution.
Are there any characters left in battle? If yes, determine who won.
Are there any souls left in play? If yes, determine if one was rescued.
Was Chariot of Fire active? If yes, shuffle Heroes into the deck.
Was Gifts of the Magi active? Doesn't matter, the phase ended before cards were drawn and it's no longer in play so the ability is done.
So you completely end the battle and then you do everything associated with the battle ending and then you shuffle in from ANB?
-
A New Beginning - If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.
So you completely end the battle and then you do everything associated with the battle ending and then you shuffle in from ANB?
That's not what it says. How did you come to that conclusion?
-
Rain becomes dust would not be active during the draw phase of the new turn. Only if you cold protect RBD from shuffle could you end up with 8 cards and watch them d/c the top 8 cards from their draw pile.
RBD doesn't help during their draw phase. If I force them to use ANB, they're activating an ability that makes them D8, before the battle ends.
Gah, ignore anything I say. I'm probably wrong.
-
The D8 would still be in a different phase, as it follows the battle phase, in which everything was shuffled. Just have Nazzy...
-
I've yet to see Sent to Serve on a CTR'd Hero, but if it were ever pulled off it'd be the most devastating legal combo in the game.
-
I've yet to see Sent to Serve on a CTR'd Hero, but if it were ever pulled off it'd be the most devastating legal combo in the game.
Placed cards are controlled by the placer. What am I missing?
I kinda like Far Country in battle as the most devastating legal combo in the game.
-
Not ones placed by Sent to Serve.
-
Why is that one an exception?
-
Placed cards are controlled by the placer. What am I missing?
Umm, not the ones placed by Sent to Serve and Agur & Co.
Why is that one an exception?
The enhancement is not discarded until end of battle. (Too bad it's silver.)
-
Placed cards are controlled by the placer. What am I missing?
Umm, not the ones placed by Sent to Serve and Agur & Co.
That's not what I was told...
Looking for thread now.
EDIT:
I see why Sent to Serve is unique. It says "As a regular enhancement" so it activates on the hero. Awesome. Guess who's going to build a Sent to Serve deck?
-
Then how do Agur and "co" work?
-
Although I couldn't find the thread, here's how I remember it.
The enhancement is placed.
You either CtR or Side Battle with the hero that has the enhancement placed on him.
You are in control of the placed enhancement, since it actually isn't activating on the hero. It's just activating.
-
That's correct. Non-Sent to Serve placed Enhancements are read from the perspective of the placer, and are not being used by the cards they are placed on (in other words, conditions including "if used by" will never be met on regular placed Enhancements).
-
Then how do Agur and "co" work?
Certainly not the way others are explaining. Here's how placed enhancements work:
- Enhancements that are activated and then placed are read from the perspective of the placer.
- Enhancements that are placed by another card but not activated are read from the perspective of the controller when they are activated in battle at a later time.
-
Do I not have "control" of the Destructive Sin on a hero?
Why would it be any different with placed enhancements? Just because it's on a hero?
-
Can we have an elder speak on this matter? I was under the idea that these "loaded" cards were decided to be read from the perspective of the owner to stop combo's like making my opponent discard all thier evil when i make them play Holy unto the Lord and Primary Objective and ANB...
-
Can we have an elder speak on this matter? I was under the idea that these "loaded" cards were decided to be read from the perspective of the owner to stop combo's like making my opponent discard all thier evil when i make them play Holy unto the Lord and Primary Objective and ANB...
I am pretty sure the Holy unto the lord combo works. You ra, make a sidebattle with two heros from your territory and give them one that you have previously loaded up with Holy unto the Lord and then watch all their Evil Cards disappear. it is quite fun but I have never been able to make a deck work well with it.
-
Can we have an elder speak on this matter? I was under the idea that these "loaded" cards were decided to be read from the perspective of the owner to stop combo's like making my opponent discard all thier evil when i make them play Holy unto the Lord and Primary Objective and ANB...
Same here. Would Sent to Serve work differently?
-
Can we have an elder speak on this matter? I was under the idea that these "loaded" cards were decided to be read from the perspective of the owner to stop combo's like making my opponent discard all thier evil when i make them play Holy unto the Lord and Primary Objective and ANB...
I am pretty sure the Holy unto the lord combo works. You ra, make a sidebattle with two heros from your territory and give them one that you have previously loaded up with Holy unto the Lord and then watch all their Evil Cards disappear. it is quite fun but I have never been able to make a deck work well with it.
You don't get the ruling. Placed cards are still owned and controlled by the one who placed it. Always. Holy Unto the Lord will still wipe your own out.Can we have an elder speak on this matter? I was under the idea that these "loaded" cards were decided to be read from the perspective of the owner to stop combo's like making my opponent discard all thier evil when i make them play Holy unto the Lord and Primary Objective and ANB...
Same here. Would Sent to Serve work differently?
Yes, because it says it activates as a normal enhancement.
-
or so we believe because the whole point here is that the PTB dont want this kind of thing happening no matter what sent to serve says...
-
You don't get the ruling. Placed cards are still owned and controlled by the one who placed it. Always. Holy Unto the Lord will still wipe your own out.
Actually, I understand the ruling, and so does Schaef. The ruling has been misapplied as evidenced by Schaef in this (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24390.0) thread. The interpretation you are using is only hearsay from some board members.
I repeat:
- Enhancements that are activated and then placed are read from the perspective of the placer.
- Enhancements that are placed by another card but not activated are read from the perspective of the controller when they are activated in battle at a later time.
-
So then there is no reason that using Agur to place ANB on a hero and then forcing your opponent to activate it would not work. Agur's ability reads the same as Sent to serve.
-
Agur (Pi)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 8 / 9 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. • Play As: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile [after a search] if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately. • Identifiers: OT Male Human • Verse: Proverbs 30:1 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)
Sent to Serve (AW)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Place a good enhancement from hand on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. When that Hero enters battle, activate that enhancement as a regular enhancement. Discard it after that battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Hebrews 1:14 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
Agur doesn't have the bolded wording.
-
"When that Hero enters battle, activate that enhancement as a regular enhancement."
seems the same as:
"The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is ..."
How is that different?
-
Sent to Serve overrides the game rule of "placed cards are controlled by the owner"
-
So why wouldn't Agur and Co.? They have consistent wording and should be treated the same.
-
Because StS's qualifier "as a regular enhancement." The key word is regular, which doesn't appear in any of the place heroes.
-
Thats seems to be a petty distinction. Is there a source for that ruling, other than the one SirNobody made? Because the thread STAMP linked to seems to indicate that the source is questionable.
-
Because StS's qualifier "as a regular enhancement." The key word is regular, which doesn't appear in any of the place heroes.
The word 'regular' only implies that it doesn't get discarded right away like Agur and Co. Regular enhancements get discarded at the end of battle. 'Regular' has nothing to do with determining who controls it.
-
Well, I'm out of ideas. Now we REALLY need an elder.
-
I am quite sure Stamp is wrong, but I really hope he's right. Can we get an elder to confirm his side and open the floodgates of awesome decks and make Pot of Manna a staple?
-
Why would placed enhancements activate on the hero? They activate, but not on a hero. There is nothing on Agur and Co. that says they activate on a hero. They're placed on a hero of matching brigade, but they just activate by themselves, not on a hero.
Sent to Serve says it's activated as a regular enhancement, which would mean it activates on a hero.
-
Why would placed enhancements activate on the hero? They activate, but not on a hero. There is nothing on Agur and Co. that says they activate on a hero. They're placed on a hero of matching brigade, but they just activate by themselves, not on a hero.
They don't need to say it. It's a game rule that enhancements can only activate on a character of matching brigade (or a character of any brigade if "regardless of brigade" is used), so they can't activate without one unless they say so (which these don't).
-
They activate, but not on a hero.
I don't think that is even possible. Enhancements have to activate on a hero. Is there any other situation where an enhancement "activates" without a character being involved? I don't think there is, so I would hesitate to say that enhancements placed by Agur and Co.(I am so making a band by that name) would activate on that hero. There is no precedent for ruling otherwise, and the card doesn not specifically state it over rides the game rule about enhancements activating on a character.
-
Enhancements activate without Heroes all the time once placed. Lifting the Curse is a good example.
-
Enhancements activate without Heroes all the time once placed. Lifting the Curse is a good example.
Wouldn't that be considered activating on a character in territory? You have to play a TC on a character. After it has been "activated" it stays active, but a character is till needed.
-
A character is only needed because is says place on a character. It would be completely fine if it was placed in a territory. A character is not needed to activate it.
-
No a charcter is needed to even play Territory class cards, so if they activate when played they are activated on a character. Ergo a character is needed to activate them.
That icon denotes a new type of enhancement: Territory Class. These Enhancements can be played during your preparation or discard phase on a character of matching brigade in your territory.
Like healing Enhancements, they give their effect immediately and are immediately discarded (unless the special ability tells you to place them somewhere else, like this card does). Alternatively, they can be played in battle, obeying the rules of initiative.
Each brigade gets one territory class Enhancement in this set. Additionally, there is an evil multi-color territory class Enhancement that can only be used by a Herod. Those 16 Enhancements will add fresh game play to Redemption all on their own. The evil territory class Enhancements are especially useful because they can be used during your own turn, so they are unaffected by opponents that choose a blocker or use ignores to keep you from using your evil cards in battle.
-
No a charcter is needed to even play Territory class cards, so if they activate when played they are activated on a character. Ergo a character is needed to activate them.
TC enhancements need a character because that is the game rule for them - they must be played on a character of matching brigade in territory. Agur & Co. are using a special ability, not a game rule, to place the enhancement.
If your logic is correct, then a hero could not have the ability "Place a good enhancement in territory. After battle, discard it to activate its ability." because it wasn't on a hero. But see, it would work, because it is the special ability that places it and that makes it activate.
-
No a charcter is needed to even play Territory class cards, so if they activate when played they are activated on a character. Ergo a character is needed to activate them.
TC enhancements need a character because that is the game rule for them - they must be played on a character of matching brigade in territory. Agur & Co. are using a special ability, not a game rule, to place the enhancement.
If your logic is correct, then a hero could not have the ability "Place a good enhancement in territory. After battle, discard it to activate its ability." because it wasn't on a hero. But see, it would work, because it is the special ability that places it and that makes it activate.
Well we don't know if that is the case, there is no card that does what you are saying.
All I am saying is that Agur and Co. place an enhancement on a hero, and specify that it activates in battle. There is no written rule that says it should be treated any differently than a regular enhancement. Until the elders rule otherwise I do not see any compelling reason to rule the combo's that Agur and his buddies will cause don't work just because some of us don't want the combo's to work. What compelling reason is there to rule that they don't work?
-
A character is only needed because is says place on a character. It would be completely fine if it was placed in a territory. A character is not needed to activate it.
No. It wouldn't be fine. If that were the case then the PTB would have to modify the rules and the REG. Currently an enhancement can only ever be activated initially on a hero. Period.
-
Well we don't know if that is the case, there is no card that does what you are saying.
All I am saying is that Agur and Co. place an enhancement on a hero, and specify that it activates in battle. There is no written rule that says it should be treated any differently than a regular enhancement. Until the elders rule otherwise I do not see any compelling reason to rule the combo's that Agur and his buddies will cause don't work just because some of us don't want the combo's to work. What compelling reason is there to rule that they don't work?
I thought that the compelling reason is that you always control your placed cards that are not placed by game rule. But INE and we could definitely use one
-
I thought that the compelling reason is that you always control your placed cards that are not placed by game rule. But INE and we could definitely use one
I agree that we could definitily use an elder ruling. Hopefully this will be noticed by them.
-
A player controls the special ability of a placed enhancement, not the enhancement itself.
No player can control the special ability of an enhancement placed by Agur until that enhancement is initially activated. Whichever player controls the activation of an Agur-placed enhancement then controls the special ability.
-
No player can control the special ability of an enhancement placed by Agur until that enhancement is initially activated. Whichever player controls the activation of an Agur-placed enhancement then controls the special ability.
And it is Agur's ability that activates the enhancement. Read Agur's ability - it includes a clause that activates the enhancement when the hero enters battle.
Placing an enhancement on a character and later having the character enter battle does not activate the enhancement. For example, you can use Sower to place a Gold enhancement on a human evil character. If the EC is converted via Holy Grail and enters battle via a banding enhancement before the enhancement is discarded (per Sower's ability), the enhancement does not activate. It just stays there. The card that did the placing (Sower) also gives the instructions on what to do with it. Why would Agur & Co be different?
-
Example Place Card
White T/C
Place on a white brigade hero. When that hero is about to be discarded, discard an evil card in play instead. Discard this card after use.
Here's an example of what you guys think the ruling is.
You have a white brigade hero in your territory. You place Example Place Card on that hero. Then, you use Gold Shield to convert that hero to a different color. That hero can't use Example Place Card because it's not the same brigade, and it needs to activate on him.
Actually, he can, because it's already been placed on him and it doesn't matter what brigade color he is after that. It was placed on a white hero. The enhancement can activate once it's triggered, regardless of brigade.
Same situation. You have a white brigade hero in your territory. You place Love at First Sight with Agur on that hero. That hero is converted to green brigade with Gold Shield. You then use that hero in a side battle. The trigger has been activated, so the enhancement activates, regardless of brigade because it just activates by itself.
Agurs ability doesn't activate the enhancement. Entering battle is the trigger that sets off the enhancement.
-
Agurs ability doesn't activate the enhancement. Entering battle is the trigger that sets off the enhancement.
***I think I got my threads mixed up I agree with this. :p
-
Agur's ability says that's when it happens.
"Play-as: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile [after a search] if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately."
The last sentence states that it's a triggered effect. "When this happens, do this." "When (the hero enters battle), (the enhancement activates)."
-
Agur's ability says that's when it happens.
"Play-as: You may place an O.T. Enhancement from hand (or discard pile [after a search] if Book of the Law is active) on a human Hero of matching brigade in your territory. The next time that Hero enters battle, that Enhancement activates and is discarded immediately."
The last sentence states that it's a triggered effect. "When this happens, do this." "When (the hero enters battle), (the enhancement activates)."
This is what I meant when I said Agur's ability activates the enhancement. His ability sets the trigger, so it indirectly activates the enhancement.
-
Example Place Card
White T/C
Place on a white brigade hero. When that hero is about to be discarded, discard an evil card in play instead. Discard this card after use.
Here's an example of what you guys think the ruling is.
You have a white brigade hero in your territory. You place Example Place Card on that hero. Then, you use Gold Shield to convert that hero to a different color. That hero can't use Example Place Card because it's not the same brigade, and it needs to activate on him.
Actually, he can, because it's already been placed on him and it doesn't matter what brigade color he is after that. It was placed on a white hero. The enhancement can activate once it's triggered, regardless of brigade.
Same situation. You have a white brigade hero in your territory. You place Love at First Sight with Agur on that hero. That hero is converted to green brigade with Gold Shield. You then use that hero in a side battle. The trigger has been activated, so the enhancement activates, regardless of brigade because it just activates by itself.
Agurs ability doesn't activate the enhancement. Entering battle is the trigger that sets off the enhancement.
Everything is wrong except the last statement. The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate. From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook. It's a simple as that.
-
I think people are misinterpreting the use of the word "activation". From my interpretation, and the usage I was using, an enhancement "activates" when you play it on a character. Yes, cards can have delayed triggers (Lay Down Your Life, etc.), but they "activate" when you first play them. The triggers simply carry out part of the special ability when tripped, they don't "activate" the card again.
The rulebook says that enhancements can only be played on a character of matching brigade and alignment. The only exceptions are cards that state otherwise ("hero may use enhancements of any good brigade this battle", "regardless of brigade", etc.). Agur and Co. do not state otherwise, so there is no reason to believe they change the default way enhancements activate.
-
Blah blah blah.
Everything is wrong except the last statement. The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate. From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook. It's a simple as that.
Eating food is wrong. Making statements without explaining anything really doesn't get us anywhere.
I think people are misinterpreting the use of the word "activation". From my interpretation, and the usage I was using, an enhancement "activates" when you play it on a character. Yes, cards can have delayed triggers (Lay Down Your Life, etc.), but they "activate" when you first play them. The triggers simply carry out part of the special ability when tripped, they don't "activate" the card again.
Okay, thanks for clarifying. I was referring to when the special ability is carried out. Simple misunderstanding.
The rulebook says that enhancements can only be played on a character of matching brigade and alignment. The only exceptions are cards that state otherwise ("hero may use enhancements of any good brigade this battle", "regardless of brigade", etc.). Agur and Co. do not state otherwise, so there is no reason to believe they change the default way enhancements activate.
That is true. However, the enhancement doesn't "activate" on the hero. It's activated by Agur (haha, now that I understand jmhartz's point, he was right). The trigger is when the hero goes into battle, this happens. Not it is played when the hero goes into battle. The enhancement only needs the trigger to be met, no other requirements are put on it. The enhancement isn't played by the hero. It's special ability is triggered by the hero. Because Agur says so.
Yeah, Elders would be nice on this one. I'd be so pumped if I can abuse this, but I was told that it wouldn't work, and it makes sense...
-
Here's the way I see it:
The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, and there has been elder support of both sides. What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?
-
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
So, just to be clear...if you Gold Shield a character that has an enhancement that was placed by Agur and Co. the enhancement will not activate. Correct?
-
@ProfAlstad: PM sent.
-
Blah blah blah.
Everything is wrong except the last statement. The trigger only gets tripped to allow the enhancement to activate. From there you follow normal rules from the rulebook. It's a simple as that.
Eating food is wrong. Making statements without explaining anything really doesn't get us anywhere.
Why do I have to explain the rules? Here, I'll give you the Rawrlolsauce method:
Step 1: Place Agur in battle, activate SA.
Step 2: Place enhancement from hand on hero in territory.
Step 3: Add trigger #1 - enhancement activates when hero enters battle in future.
Step 4: Add trigger #2 - after enhancement activates, discard enhancement.
Step 5: Follow rules in Redemption rulebook that have been around since 1995 on how to play an enhancement.
Step 6: Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
Step 7: Profit!
Here's the way I see it:
The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
Professoralstad is correct.
What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?
Done. Since 11/2010. But not posting it because then there'd be a lot of crybabies. IF I get the chance I'll bring it to Nats, let the PTB ban it after the 1st round, then become a Stepford Wife and play Disciples like everyone else. :P
-
You missed the second to last step:
???
Here's the way I see it:
The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
Professoralstad is correct.
Since when do non-elders say that an elder is correct? Isn't supposed to be the other way around?
On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.
-
On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.
Epic win FTW. I'm always in favor of adding more insanity to the game.
-
On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.
Epic win FTW. I'm always in favor of adding more insanity to the game.
Especially when it involves ANB.
-
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
So, just to be clear...if you Gold Shield a character that has an enhancement that was placed by Agur and Co. the enhancement will not activate. Correct?
I would say that is correct. Agur says that the enhancement activates when the character enters battle, however, since the enhancement can't activate on a character that it doesn't match, then the enhancement is just discarded. It's kind of like when you play a card that forces your opponent to draw with him being at the hand limit...the ability says to draw, and he can't, so he doesn't. That is, a game rule that doesn't allow you to take an action that you are required by an ability to perform trumps the ability.
On a serious note, he basically just said that he was going to change the rule. I love rule changes in favor of combos.
Not quite...I said that I would support a certain point of view regarding the question. I don't really know what the rule is for sure, I'm just saying what my intuition would lead me to believe. I don't have THAT kind of power.
-
Since when do non-elders say that an elder is correct? Isn't supposed to be the other way around?
Point acknowledged. The most accurate and truthful response should have been:
Marcus is correct.
-
Step one: place ANB on someone.
Step two: Grapes
Step three: they can't attack you until they can get rid of GoJ and King Reheboam
I think the threat of massive combo is much more effective than the combo itself.
-
IF I get the chance I'll bring it to Nats, let the PTB ban it after the 1st round, then become a Stepford Wife and play Disciples like everyone else. :P
I play Daniel heroes.
-
Step one: place ANB on someone.
Step two: Grapes
Step three: they can't attack you until they can get rid of GoJ and King Reheboam
I think the threat of massive combo is much more effective than the combo itself.
I heard a rumor that ANB now has a "If making a rescue attempt..." clause so that you can't use a side battle to activate it. I actually made a deck earlier this week where I blocked with my Rehoboam, made my Cherubim/ET fight my own green hero, and I played Sent to Serve with ET and placed ANB on my green hero, which immediately entered battle and activated. I also had Nazareth and Rain Becomes Dust in my territory, but my opponent reminded me of this clause in the errata of ANB.
-
Doesn't matter. They make a rescue attempt, you block with Rehoboam, give them a hero with ANB on it. They're making a rescue attempt.
-
Does the above example work? even though the current battle is a side battle?
-
Forgot about that, but Stalks of Flax and Complainers is still 2 turns of blocking.
-
Here's the way I see it:
The most intuitive way for me to read the situation is that the person controlling the character controls the enhancement's activation, i.e. the combo works. That would be how I would have ruled it prior to reading Tim's explanation in the other thread. I still find that way to be more intuitive, but I figured that since that would potentially break the game with the introduction of Nazareth, I went along with Tim's explanation, and thought the matter had been settled. Since apparently it is not, I will put forth my opinion:
Agur (et al) places the enhancement, just like any other place ability where the enhancement doesn't activate: Storehouse, Golgotha, etc. The Hero enters battle, controlled by your opponent. I agree with those that have argued that enhancements, by game rule, have to activate on characters. Enhancements like Lifting the Curse and Herod's Treachery were activated when they were played, by the character they were used by, so they are different than Agur and friends' placed enhancements. Just because all abilities on Lifting the Curse may not complete when it is first activated, doesn't mean that it doesn't have an active ability.
Of course, I'm not 100% sure on this, and there has been elder support of both sides. What would be interesting is for someone to build a deck in RTS that involves a combo that would abuse this idea, and play it against a normal T2 deck (or T1, if you're so inclined). Since the combo requires a lot of setup, it's not like a player in game would really have the element of surprise before execution anyway, so I don't think the fact that the normal deck player would be at too much of an advantage as far as knowing what's coming (unless he teched his deck against it, which kind of defeats the purpose). It's not necessarily because rulings should be based off of combos, but since this one is effectively a toss-up, the power of such a combo may factor into how it is ruled. Any volunteers?
Any word on this? Is it being worked on/ruled to work/ruled to not work?
-
I am becoming more and more convinced that a placed enhancement is controlled by the player that placed it.
in almost every other instance the player that placed the enhancement controlls the enhancement. Even when placed on heroes and EC's those enhancements are not controlled by the other opponent when that character enters battle.
While I would really like for this to work, I am almost 100% positive that ANB placed on my hero and given to my oppoent to make a RA with will not be seen as an enhancement used by them but instead it will be seen as an enhancement used by me so My nazareth will not protect me from it.
-
I am becoming more and more convinced...no, 100% positive...that if you all give me your unspent money, that you still control it. ::)
-
I am becoming more and more convinced...no, 100% positive...that if you all give me your unspent money, that you still control it. ::)
While I see your point in real life, we are talking game mechanics instead. Any other placed enhancement is controlled by the person who placed it and not by the person who happens to be controlling a character with an enhancement placed on it. True, most of these enhancements have been activated previously (either territory class or played in battle etc, and Agur N co merely place the enhancement without activating it so maybe there is a distinction to be made there.
But you will have to make a very good case for one group of heroes to place and use enhancements far differently than any other in the game.
-
Well, there is a difference that I've already stated many times. It's a very distinct difference. It also falls within the current ruleset. And it's logical.
Gil Grissom would even say, "Case closed."
-
I dug up Tim's ruling on the placed enhancements, which includes his reasoning. As far as I know it's the only elder ruling on the topic.
Hey,
With all of the "place an enhancement on a character, it activates when that character enters battle" abilities the player that placed the enhancement carries it out even if an opponent controls the character it is on when that happens. So this won't work like you want it to with those cards. Sent to Serve is worded slightly differently so it might work, but I'm not sure.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Some of the elders are discussing this. When a conclusion is reached one of us will let the community know.
-
I know this is an old ruling but I forget: if I have a unique character in my territory, can I still capture that same unique character from my opponent?
-
Yes. Banding is the only ability that you can't use to force two of the same unique character, because it has a specific exception in the rule. Any other ability can be used to force a situation in which you must Discard all but one of the unique characters you control.
-
I always forget that one too
-
I dug up Tim's ruling on the placed enhancements, which includes his reasoning. As far as I know it's the only elder ruling on the topic.
Hey,
With all of the "place an enhancement on a character, it activates when that character enters battle" abilities the player that placed the enhancement carries it out even if an opponent controls the character it is on when that happens. So this won't work like you want it to with those cards. Sent to Serve is worded slightly differently so it might work, but I'm not sure.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Some of the elders are discussing this. When a conclusion is reached one of us will let the community know.
Any update? It's been a month.
-
Yes. Banding is the only ability that you can't use to force two of the same unique character, because it has a specific exception in the rule. Any other ability can be used to force a situation in which you must Discard all but one of the unique characters you control.
Speaking with full apreciate of Daniel answering my question and total respect for his thorough knowledge of the rules, does anyone have other sources on this?
I was not, in a brief search of the REG, able to find such a situation referenced and would like further evidence to point to in the event that it comes up at some approaching tournaments.
-
I dug up Tim's ruling on the placed enhancements, which includes his reasoning. As far as I know it's the only elder ruling on the topic.
Hey,
With all of the "place an enhancement on a character, it activates when that character enters battle" abilities the player that placed the enhancement carries it out even if an opponent controls the character it is on when that happens. So this won't work like you want it to with those cards. Sent to Serve is worded slightly differently so it might work, but I'm not sure.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Some of the elders are discussing this. When a conclusion is reached one of us will let the community know.
Any update? It's been a month.
What you see here is the standing ruling unless you hear otherwise.
-
Yes. Banding is the only ability that you can't use to force two of the same unique character, because it has a specific exception in the rule. Any other ability can be used to force a situation in which you must Discard all but one of the unique characters you control.
Speaking with full apreciate of Daniel answering my question and total respect for his thorough knowledge of the rules, does anyone have other sources on this?
About the banding being an exception part? We have...
There are two sides to the duplicate characters rule. The more commonly implemented one is the rule that restricts me from having more than one copy of a unique character that I control. The less common side is that two copies of the same unique character cannot be in the same battle at the same time.
The second side stems from the idea that you can't block a converted Goliath with a non-converted Goliath, and doesn't have anything to do with control of the character so it is necessary in addition to the first side. (It's not necessary in that the game would explode without it but rather that the duplicate characters rule as it has been since it's inception would be significantly different without it.)
-
I was not, in a brief search of the REG, able to find such a situation referenced and would like further evidence to point to in the event that it comes up at some approaching tournaments.
I believe it's in the rulebook, not the REG.
-
I was not, in a brief search of the REG, able to find such a situation referenced and would like further evidence to point to in the event that it comes up at some approaching tournaments.
I believe it's in the rulebook, not the REG.
Page 10 to be exact.