Author Topic: Ambush (Read 4686 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **on:** March 25, 2011, 02:32:38 AM »

How does Ambush work?

Specifically, when does the special ability on the hero activate?

Ambush (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Common)

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #1 on:** March 25, 2011, 08:03:19 AM »

I would think:

"This face-down hero has access to any site. When this face-down hero is blocked or opponent chooses not to block this hero, flip hero face-up."

Josh · « **Reply #2 on:** March 25, 2011, 08:12:17 AM »

So I wonder... Tangential thought here... Is the CBN site access gained permanently by the hero?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2011, 08:30:00 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on March 25, 2011, 08:12:17 AM

So I wonder... Tangential thought here... Is the CBN site access gained permanently by the hero?

No. The site access is only for the face-down hero, which would end after the first battle.

STAMP · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2011, 09:48:27 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on March 25, 2011, 02:32:38 AM

How does Ambush work?

Specifically, when does the special ability on the hero activate?

Ambush (Pa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Hero returns to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle, Hero is flipped face up. • Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up. • Identifiers: OT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Joshua 8:2 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Common)

As soon as the hero begins the battle. Ambush's SA allows for the insertion of EC abilities between the hero's abilities. Order:

1. Site access
2. Triggered ability that allows insertion of EC abilities
3. EC abilities
4. Triggered ability to flip hero
5. Remaining hero abilites

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:50:03 AM »

I'm reviving this to ask what happens in the hero is unblocked. Does he stay facedown? Does he still have access?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:53:13 AM »

I was about to then i figured it was in the errata disguised as play as.

Bryon · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:55:50 AM »

The "play as" is correct, even if it might rather be called errata.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:56:51 AM »

So Ambush was errata'd? How come?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2011, 01:05:36 AM »

Additionally, if he 'chooses not to block' does that mean he gives up the lost soul? Or is it similar to a BC becoming an RA in that the opponent can decline to block, then present one after Harvest Time.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2011, 01:20:30 AM »

I think he should get the soul if unblocked and then flip after battle resolution so he doesnt get to use ability.

Bryon · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2011, 03:47:08 AM »

If opponent doesn't block, then you flip the hero and see if he can rescue the lost soul (if he is N.T., angel, etc.).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2011, 10:13:32 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on August 23, 2011, 01:20:30 AM

I think he should get the soul if unblocked and then flip after battle resolution so he doesnt get to use ability.

I agree with Bryon that the hero gets flipped up if the opponent chooses to not block, and I agree that the LS has to be given once the flip happens. But I think maniac has a good point too, that the hero's SA shouldn't happen since it would've been upside down the whole time, therefore doing the flip during battle resolution makes sense.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2011, 10:42:28 AM »

How exactly can a Hero enter battle, or be turned face up and their ability doesn't activate?

The Heroes ability triggers when it's turned face up. All other triggered abilities work during battle resolution (Hormah for example). I don't see any reason the Hero wouldn't too.

STAMP · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2011, 11:32:04 AM »

Gabe is correct.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:26:00 PM »

Ambush
• Play As: Set aside a male Hero (face down) from your hand for one turn. Return Hero to territory face down. Hero enters battle face down with access to any site. When opponent presents an Evil Character in battle or chooses not to block, Hero is flipped face up.

The Centurion at Calvary
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 7 / 6 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate special abilities on Evil Characters and evil weapons. Hero has access to all Sites

From the REG:
An “access to any site” ability loses access to a site initially chosen when it ceases to hold a Lost Soul.

Scenario: Centurion at Calvary returns from Ambush set aside card. Centurion enters battle face down. Opponent has 3 lost souls, all in Egypt sites. The owner of Centurion chooses to have access to the Egypt on the "left". The opponent plays SoG/NJ on the lost soul on the "left" and another soul. Thus the face down hero has lost access by Ambush...

How does an "Ambushed" Centurion work into this ruling? If we agree that the hero has an opportunity to activate before ending battle resolution, then the Centurion will have an opportunity to gain access to ALL lost souls.

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:30:12 PM »

If you read the very next section of "Gain Access" portion of the REG is says:

Quote from: REG

Clarifications

Because gain access abilities are dynamic and only one Lost Soul can be rescued in each battle, there is no functional difference between gaining access to “any” (one) site and gaining access to “all” (all) sites.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2011, 12:31:18 PM »

AFAIK, in a T1 game, "access to any site" is the same as "access to all sites", meaning that you don't actually choose the site you are gaining access to. I'm not sure if that section of the REG is a relic from before the update, or if it is just confusing. Any ambushed Hero should have access to any and all sites that have Lost Souls in them.

EDIT: Instaposted.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2011, 02:00:27 PM »

Gotcha, here I went and looked up a list of cards with "any site" in the SA to see if I was playing any of them wrong. But there is no difference in how they're played. We should probably get the phrase I quoted removed if possible. Thanks Gabe and Jordan!

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #19 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:19:17 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 23, 2011, 10:42:28 AM

How exactly can a Hero enter battle, or be turned face up and their ability doesn't activate?

How can the Hero get turned face up when they aren't blocked and the card that put them face down says to flip them when they are blocked. This whole situation is weirdness to begin with.

I thought at first that we were treating the whole RA as if Ambush's SA was carried out, and then at the end we were just flipping the card to prove to the opponent that the upside down card was indeed a hero. If that is the case, then the SA of the hero should never activate because it was in effect face-down the whole time.

But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** August 23, 2011, 04:32:11 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 23, 2011, 04:19:17 PM

But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?

From what I gather, that's the way we've already gone. At one time Ambush was commonly used in T2, but that pre-dates me. At Nationals this same question came up about Ambush. Not only did we get a ruling but at that time (or maybe it was later) I got a brief history lesson about the awesomeness of Ambush in T2. The short answer is that Ambush has been played that the Hero is flipped over if the opponent declines to block. It's SA activates and a LS is awarded if they have access.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #21 on:** August 23, 2011, 06:08:45 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 23, 2011, 04:32:11 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on August 23, 2011, 04:19:17 PM
But it seems like you are suggesting that if the defender refuses to block, that we flip the card and proceed as if it were a regular RA and have all SAs activate. This seems to be going against the spirit of the SA on Ambush more than RTSmaniac's alternative. Is that the way we want to go?

From what I gather, that's the way we've already gone. At one time Ambush was commonly used in T2, but that pre-dates me. At Nationals this same question came up about Ambush. Not only did we get a ruling but at that time (or maybe it was later) I got a brief history lesson about the awesomeness of Ambush in T2. The short answer is that Ambush has been played that the Hero is flipped over if the opponent declines to block. It's SA activates and a LS is awarded if they have access.

Ah, yes, the glory days of Mentor+ET.

lightningninja · « **Reply #22 on:** August 23, 2011, 07:14:49 PM »

I don't feel like tradition should dictate the special ability of Ambush. I agree with Prof Underwood that if there is no evil character, the play as ability doesn't allow the hero to be flipped (because he was not blocked).

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #23 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:14:27 AM »

there was a reason but i dont remember now and the post since purged...

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #24 on:** August 24, 2011, 10:16:58 AM »

Quote from: lightningninja on August 23, 2011, 07:14:49 PM

I don't feel like tradition should dictate the special ability of Ambush. I agree with Prof Underwood that if there is no evil character, the play as ability doesn't allow the hero to be flipped (because he was not blocked).

I agree. If the only reason is to ensure that the card is a hero, that's kinda lame. If it gets it and you are that concerned, just call a judge and ask them to look at the facedown card.

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Author Topic: Ambush (Read 4686 times)