Author Topic: Ambush the City  (Read 5242 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 12:43:28 PM »
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Since I am not an Elder, this is how Younger STAMP sees it:

Ambush the City will be abused if it is categorized with The Long Day and Grapes of Wrath.  It should remain in the side battle category but with the extra caveat that it also switches the RA from one to the next.  In other words, AtC starts a side battle then changes it to be the main battle, and changes the main battle to be a side battle.  Furthermore, the original battle does get put in the set-aside area so they can be targeted by cards such as The Watcher.  Finally, as pertains to EC that are either ignoring or protected from the hero's actions, they do not go to the set-aside area but rather return to territory, a la ANB.

So in summary:

1) You can only play one AtC per turn.

2) AtC does not start a new Battle Phase.

3) Cards in original battle are in set-aside area.

4) ECs that ignore or are protected from AtC return to territory.

I Agree with all but 4. What happens when the ATC battle finishes? The original hero would be unblocked.

Offline Bryon

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2010, 01:05:36 PM »
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But it is not a side battle card.  It is a set aside card and a begin a new rescue attempt card.  A side battle card does neither of those things.

You can only use the card if you are making a rescue attempt, so I don't see how this would be abused.  You are allowed to play more than one in a turn.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2010, 01:09:50 PM »
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Ok, new question then if its not a side battle card.

What happens if I play grapes during an ATC battle? Do I get to make a new battle with grapes and just forget about the original battle, or does the original battle come back?

Offline Bryon

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2010, 01:50:10 PM »
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Which AtC battle?  The new rescue attempt, or the subsequent battle challenge?

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 01:59:05 PM »
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I'll be more specific.

I RA, and play Ambush the City.

Then, during the second RA caused by AtC, I play Grapes, and I do not have the most redeemed LS.

What happens?

Offline STAMP

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2010, 01:59:49 PM »
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But it is not a side battle card.  It is a set aside card and a begin a new rescue attempt card.  A side battle card does neither of those things.

You can only use the card if you are making a rescue attempt, so I don't see how this would be abused.  You are allowed to play more than one in a turn.

Bryon, I agree with you.  I only mentioned the other interpretation because AtC WILL be abused, and most assuredly lead to an errata this way.

Will I build an AtC-abuse deck?  Absolutely.  The player in me strives to find great combos.

Will I feel bad if T1 players are impacted by another errata created by an abused combo in T2?  Absolutely.

So why create the deck in the first place?  Because maybe a solution will be found to "fix" abuse in T2 without impacting T1 players.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2010, 02:06:14 PM »
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Will I build an AtC-abuse deck?  Absolutely.  The player in me strives to find great combos.
Oh believe me, I've already started working on combos.

Offline Red

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2010, 02:35:04 PM »
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 +1
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2010, 02:45:45 PM »
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we should all know by now lambo never asks a question on here unless it has to do with some new elaborate evil combo he's concocting. ;)
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2010, 02:51:12 PM »
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Naw, often times I'll argue a ruling on here and realize it can be abused.  :D

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 11:22:33 PM »
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Still waiting for my ATC vs Grapes question to be answered, but I have a new question:

According to Bryon, a new RA means a new phase. Wouldn't this cause all sorts of logistics issues with artifacts?

Example:

Say I discarded, but not negated Holy of Holies in the initial battle with an enhancement, and I was blocked by KoT. I play ATC, finish the second battle, and come back. Technically HoH has been gone for two phases now. So, would KoT negate the art negation and cause the infinite negate loop they tried to avoid?

Also:

What happens to the original character abilities from the first battle, do they reactivate, or do they just "resume"?

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2010, 01:26:40 PM »
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Hey,

The resumption of the original battle as per Ambush the City is a triggered effect.  Grapes of Wrath played in the 2nd battle causes the trigger to be tripped, but the triggered effect has to wait until the currently resolving abilities are resolved before it can kick in.  The currently resolving abilities are the ones on Grapes, which includes the battle caused by Grapes.  So the battle caused by Grapes happens and after that battle the original battle concludes.

"A new Rescue Attempt means a new phase" in the case of Grapes of Wrath and The Long Day creates consecutive battle phases, in the case of Ambush the City it creates concurrent (or nested or overlapping) battle phases.  I don't like the idea of two phases happening at the same time, thus I have always been against this rule but it is the status quo.

This means any ongoing effect from the original battle applies to the new battle (because the original battle phase hasn't ended yet), but ongoing effects in the new battle will not generally affect the original battle (because they end when the new battle phase ends which is just before the original battle resumes).  So if Ambush the City is played on Moses, both the original battle and the new battle are by-the-numbers, but if Ambush the City is played on someone else and Moses starts the new battle, the new battle is by-the-numbers but the original battle is not.

Ambush the City does (according to the status quo) move the cards from the original battle to the set-aside area.  If a card cannot be set aside it would remain in the Field of Battle and wait for the other cards to return.  Of course this creates an issue with the "no character can enter battle twice in one turn" rule.  When the characters from the original battle are set aside they leave the Field of battle, to resume the battle they would have to enter the battle a second time...which they are not allowed to do.

I have been trying to get Ambush the City, The Long Day, and Grapes of Wrath categorized as Side Battle cards in the new REG, which I believe would eliminate a lot of the sticky situations that these cards create, but I haven't had much luck winning the other PTB over to my side...yet :)

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2010, 01:54:34 PM »
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"A new Rescue Attempt means a new phase" in the case of Grapes of Wrath and The Long Day creates consecutive battle phases, in the case of Ambush the City it creates concurrent (or nested or overlapping) battle phases.  I don't like the idea of two phases happening at the same time, thus I have always been against this rule but it is the status quo.

This means any ongoing effect from the original battle applies to the new battle (because the original battle phase hasn't ended yet), but ongoing effects in the new battle will not generally affect the original battle (because they end when the new battle phase ends which is just before the original battle resumes).  So if Ambush the City is played on Moses, both the original battle and the new battle are by-the-numbers, but if Ambush the City is played on someone else and Moses starts the new battle, the new battle is by-the-numbers but the original battle is not.

That's going to be awfully confusing for new players....  :o

It seems strange to me that two phases happen at once. Something tells me theres probably some artifacts this would cause some problems with. I need to go take a look...

Quote
Ambush the City does (according to the status quo) move the cards from the original battle to the set-aside area.  If a card cannot be set aside it would remain in the Field of Battle and wait for the other cards to return.  Of course this creates an issue with the "no character can enter battle twice in one turn" rule.  When the characters from the original battle are set aside they leave the Field of battle, to resume the battle they would have to enter the battle a second time...which they are not allowed to do.

So, lets make an example to see if I understand how this works:

I have an EC who is protected from Ambush the City (with say, Jeroboam's Idolatry)... My opponent plays Ambush the City. My EC is unable to be targeted to be sent to the set aside area, and remains in battle. During the second battle phase.... is he still part of the battle, and does his SA activate again since its a new phase?

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2010, 02:13:36 PM »
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Hey,

I have an EC who is protected from Ambush the City (with say, Jeroboam's Idolatry)... My opponent plays Ambush the City. My EC is unable to be targeted to be sent to the set aside area, and remains in battle. During the second battle phase.... is he still part of the battle, and does his SA activate again since its a new phase?

His ability does not activate again, abilities activate when the card enters battle, he was already in battle so his ability reactivated.

Just like a side battle causes two separate battles within one field of battle, Ambush the City creates two battles within one field of battle (typically one of those battles is empty because all of the cards were set aside).  The new battle is a different battle from the original battle, so even if a character is protected from being set aside out of the first battle, he would not participate in the second battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2010, 02:26:15 PM »
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However, I thought Ambush the City was not a side battle card...

Also, would cards such as Hidden Treasures activate in both the original battle and the ATC battle, since its two separate phases?

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2010, 02:31:05 PM »
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Hey,

However, I thought Ambush the City was not a side battle card...

It's an aspect of the Field of Battle not the special ability.  And the same Field of Battle is used for both types of cards.

Quote
Also, would cards such as Hidden Treasures activate in both the original battle and the ATC battle, since its two separate phases?

Hidden Treasures says "Once per turn..." thus you could not use it in both phases, but something like Philistine Outpost can be used more than once when Ambush the City (or more commonly Grapes of Wrath) is used.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2010, 02:36:22 PM »
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Hidden Treasures says "Once per turn..."

Whoops....  ;D

*edit*

Another question regarding the dual phases. Say I have Household Idols active, and I discard the artifact without negating it. I know it would stay active during that first battle. However, if I was to play ATC after discarding HHI, would it still be active, or would the "new phase" effectively cancel its effect?

If yes, I would be able to put banding heroes into battle correct? Now comes the real kicker... if its effect has ended in the second phase, what happens back in the original battle? are banding heroes no longer ignored, or does its ability somehow stay active for that battle?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 02:42:50 PM by Lamborghini_diablo »

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Ambush the City
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2010, 01:59:01 PM »
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Hey,

Another question regarding the dual phases. Say I have Household Idols active, and I discard the artifact without negating it. I know it would stay active during that first battle. However, if I was to play ATC after discarding HHI, would it still be active, or would the "new phase" effectively cancel its effect?

If an artifact is discarded but not negated it remains active until the end of the current phase.  So if it's discarded during the first battle it remains active until the end of the first battle.  The entire second battle happens before the end of the first battle so the artifact remains active for the entire second battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

 


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