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if I place a Jehoida's Strength on Ahimaaz, can I retreat from battle before Jehoida's Strength activates? and is it still placed?

I think that it would bring a different character into battle since it would have to be activated in battle.

I think he wants to keep J Strength on Ahimaaz until he is ready to use it.

so it then activates, with Ahimaaz no longer in battle. Sounds fine to me. Is this broken somehow?

I don't see how this works according to this logic.   My understanding is that Ahimazz enters battle.  His ability completes and then Jehoida's strength would interrupt and band in other players, but you can't interrupt something that isn't there (in this case the battle, because Ahimazz has already left).  But on the same token then Spy-Warriors Spear wouldn't work either.  So.....I guess it would work. 

Quote from: Tracer Burnout on March 27, 2010, 07:17:48 PM

... but you can't interrupt something that isn't there (in this case the battle, because Ahimazz has already left). 

It is a mistake to think that the battle is over when Ahimaaz leaves it. Ahimaaz began the battle when he entered it, but he did not end it when he left.

Okay, but if he withdrew and no evil character is present, than what is there to represent a battle?

However, since it entered battle, it stays there and is simply discarded.

So based on this does Spy+Warrior's Spear work because it is a weapon class enhancement. 

An enhancement needs a character to activate on.  Just as an enhancement is discarded if there is not a character of matching brigade in battle, J's Strength would be discarded.

The way I see it, Ahimaaz's ability has to activate before JStrength can. When Ahimaaz's ability completes, he (and JStrength with him) is in territory. That wouldn't stop JStrength from activating, however; enhancements often activate outside of battle. What's the problem with this? Why does no one like it?

... you can't band to no one; someone has to be in battle to band.

I don't know, that area in the REG seems a bit fuzzy to me. It seems to me like the wording "add to battle" or even "band into battle" wouldn't require any hero to be in battle initially, but maybe that's a dumb gut feeling on my part. You're probably right here.

In addition, the REG says nothing about playing Warrior's Spear outside of battle while the bolded portion of my quote states that banding abilities are played during battle.

Again, the battle is still going on. Just no one is in it. (This is the way we play it based on rulings involving Unknown Nation, Grapes of Wrath, etc.)

If this did work, I could think of ways to make multiple RAs per turn with banding to no one.

How would you be able to do this in ways that haven't already been done?

I can see your point here. I still would like to get an official word on this matter.

I still say Spy & Warriors Spear doesn't work (thus the same in this scenario) because the current REG says this:

Instant Abilities > Withdraw from Battle > How to Use

Withdraw cards can be used to immediately terminate a battle or rescue attempt.  Only cards targeted to withdraw must leave the Field of Battle.  If the withdraw card specifies that only a character withdraws from battle, the enhancements are discarded unless there is another character remaining or immediately replaced in the Field of Battle that can use them.  Cards returned to your hand return to face value and cards returned to your territory retain their abilities.  Other characters in battle not targeted remain in battle.  If a withdrawing character was the only one in battle, the battle ends.


The current ruling for "Battle immediately ends" is that no other SAs can activate - you go directly to Battle Resolution. Based on the above quote, withdrawing Ahimaaz before a blocker is presented constitutes "battle immediately ends."

When I presented this in the Spy debate, all I got was "the REG wasn't supposed to say that." Perhaps the new REG will clarify this, but I am reluctant to rule my tournaments based on what one person said the REG didn't mean to say. That whole paragraph seems to be painstakingly written to say exactly what it means.

I still say Spy & Warriors Spear doesn't work (thus the same in this scenario) because the current REG says this:
...

When I presented this in the Spy debate, all I got was "the REG wasn't supposed to say that." Perhaps the new REG will clarify this, but I am reluctant to rule my tournaments based on what one person said the REG didn't mean to say. That whole paragraph seems to be painstakingly written to say exactly what it means.

Having that information readily available, Bryon ruled...

Spy + Warriors Spear "works," if by "works," you mean the discard happens.

Did the spear enter battle?  yes
Was it negated (directly or indirectly)? no
Then it works.

The discard happens AFTER the withdraw option.  So, if you choose to withdraw, and then the discard makes a lost soul become available, you can't decide "oh, I mean Spy stays in battle." 

So you don't have to worry about ruling "based on what one person said the REG didn't mean to say." Bryon is quite explicit that Spy + Warriors Spear works, which means to all extents and purposes (i.e., Rob explicitly overruling Bryon)--regardless of what the REG says--Spy + Warriors Spear works.

Tim Maly was the one I was referring to. Did Bryon's post come before or after my post? Could you link the thread.

Cool trick people should know about--when you quote someone using the official way--the "Quote from..." line is a link to the message and its thread.

Either I posted after Bryon, or Bryon did not even consider my post, since he never mentions the REG.

It is likely you posted the REG quote after Bryon's comment above because about a month after Bryon's post you made the following comment on the same thread...

We were discussing this in another thread, but I would argue that the REG is clear that the spear would not work. The REG says that if the hero withdraws, then the battle ends. We already have an understanding of what "battle ends" means. If abilities in battle can still activate after the "battle ends," then that will have a plethora of peripheral problematic effects.

I am not sure when the discussion in the other thread you referenced occurred, so it depends on whether "were discussing" meant "more than a month ago" or more recently than that.

In any case Bryon did not respond to anyone after the quote above, so I wouldn't take it as a personal snub.

Either way, I disagree. I believe I may have even mentioned the scenario of Siege bringing in a bunch of ECs, but then one of them using a "play next" to play Wonders Forgotten, which immediately ends the battle. In that case, a bunch of cards enter battle without their SA being negated and yet they do not activate. So, his response could not be correct unless there is some difference that I am missing.

The argument being advanced is that the lone hero leaving the field of battle does not immediately end the battle. Taken from that perspective, I am not sure how the Siege + Wonders Forgotten scenario has any relevance since it is based on an SA that specifically states the battle is immediately ended.

Here is the thing, however. I think in all of this you have managed to cut to the heart of the issue which is whether a lone hero leaving battle immediately ends the battle or not. It is not clear to me that at the time of Bryon's initial confirmation people had realized that was the key question. I think it would be best of you created a separate thread requesting an official PTB ruling on this issue.  Put forward the existing REG quote and ask if this is being explicitly overruled.

The only risk that you face in this course of action is that someone will write a post complaining about people who whine  about and/or search for loopholes around every picky little ruling they disagree with. That drawback of that seems to me to be relatively minor compared to the other option of having an experienced host override a quite direct ruling from Tim and Bryon.

Sort of an off topic question, but would I be allowed to play seige, and then band in some of their heroes, then ALL of my evil characters, and finish with a character that can play next, play an end the battle card, and discard a large number of their heroes without banding in EVERY one of their heroes?

Im saying, seige can potentially turn into a CBN mass hero discarder if used right.