Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: Ironisaac on April 23, 2019, 12:49:43 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on April 23, 2019, 12:27:29 PM

The ORCID shows a play as that just takes it to hand after exchanging so.....

So... what are you implying here?

That is doesnt work because of

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 23, 2019, 02:30:03 PM

Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

Acts of Solomon was intended to move the new card straight to hand, never entering battle. But exchange has been updated since then and there's not really a mechanism in the rules to alter either end of an exchange, so the exchange puts the card into battle.

Basically, Acts of Solomon was supposed to function like Faith (PoC), and has probably been played as such, but that's not what it actually says.

Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?

No, because:

Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

Quote from: The Schaefer on April 23, 2019, 03:58:42 PM

Yeah I figured that but due to how its worded it should put it into battle and then take it to hand after it is in battle but not actually activate as it is not in battle by the time it could activate. That right?

No, because:

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on April 23, 2019, 02:30:03 PM

Abilities that play cards or bring cards into battle are not complete until the ability of the card played/brought into battle is complete.

I completely read that differently where the ability couldn't insert in between like that. 

On a Side note the play as is worded

"Exchange this card with a good enhancement from hand and take it."

With that wording it seems like its definitely intending to be one action where it just goes to hand. Also considering under the REG exchange clause of

" An exchange effect may be paired with other effects to act upon one or more of the exchanged cards before the exchange completes. Often the paired effects will change the location of where their targets go."

Isn't AoS just doing what this clause says? Meaning before the exchange is completed due to the paired effect of take it it goes to hand as take defaults to hand?

Is it literally just the ruling Aggie mentioned that seems to override the REG in this instance or am I misinterpreting something?

I'm completely fine with being wrong I just want to understand why. Lol

The exchange causes the exchanged for enhancement to activate it's ability in battle before being taken to hand.

On a Side note the play as is worded

"Exchange this card with a good enhancement from hand and take it."

With that wording it seems like its definitely intending to be one action where it just goes to hand. Also considering under the REG exchange clause of

" An exchange effect may be paired with other effects to act upon one or more of the exchanged cards before the exchange completes. Often the paired effects will change the location of where their targets go."

Isn't AoS just doing what this clause says? Meaning before the exchange is completed due to the paired effect of take it it goes to hand as take defaults to hand?

Is it literally just the ruling Aggie mentioned that seems to override the REG in this instance or am I misinterpreting something?

I'm completely fine with being wrong I just want to understand why. Lol

Because the Play As changes how the card plays, we should base the discussion on what the card actually says. The Play As is just what everyone thought it said until yesterday.

The REG quote is supposed to apply in this situation, but a) it only potentially applies to 2 cards (this and H Deck Great Faith) and it's just trying to rectify poor wording, so it may be unnecessary anyway, and b) it arguably doesn't apply in this situation because the exchange and put in hand are in 2 different sentences. Sentences can be tied together, but you usually complete the first before moving to the second.

I understand the ruling is as you say it is. I do not understand as to why. Mostly because it seems like the Reg definition of exchange has a useless clause unless I'm missing somethingm the clause in the REG that I described earlier seems to clearly describe the situation and abilities of AoS and as such before it could activate and before the exchange finishes it would be taken instead of being played (according the the play as in the ORDIR). Now it could also be interpreted that before the exchange completes as relevant to that REG entry the ability must still complete but that isn't under that portion of the REG so that may be my confusion. Ultimately I really don't care how it's ruled. I'm good with however. The thing that frustrates me is how the rules interact with each other and how frequent this happens in the game. I want Redemption to make sense mechanically but it doesnt in all cases. This is just one such example and while it is functional  I don't feel that functional equates to good or adequate. But that's me. Redemption is a great game and I want to stress that and I want to emphasize my support of it and its future. Mechanically it struggles however and we shouldn't have these issues 25 years after inception nor just accept them imo. The issue of AoS may be small in the grand scheme of things but it highlights a larger issue one that keeps many from wanting to learn or continue to play once they realize that it's a beyond arduous task to learn the rules correctly.

I likely am just venting frustration so if an admin feels like deleting this for being off topic that's fine. I've just learned to accept that I'm often wrong and that the game is too complex to really care about knowing them all. Kinda frustrating but that's how it is.

I feel like this is an issue of old/bad wording, not an issue of game rules and definitions.

though not even really bad wording...just wording from a time when things were not as clearly defined.

If the original wording from Consider the Lilies is correct, and it is searched for by AoS, will the shuffled copy of Consider the Lilies be added to hand from deck?

That's definitely an incorrect Play As for CtL based on current definition of exchange.

If AoS was used to exchange to CtL (assuming you had a Hero that could use both Gold and White such as Jep's Daughter) then CtL would complete and be back in deck, and would then no longer be a valid target for AoS to add to your hand.

Kings was too advanced for its own good.

I know there's the whole "Ignore errata disguised as play-as" that people used to recite, but there really shouldn't need to be 'play-as' at all. Long story short, just errata cards like this (with outdated/wonky wording) to be played as intended already. For example, it never, ever made sense to me why things like Third Seal and its ilk worked around Coliseum. That kind of thing is nothing less than exploiting loopholes in older-worded cards, for no reason other than it's a loophole.

Or, you know, so many problems would be instantly solved with rotation of older cards...

Or just let rotation solve all our problems.

So I'm not keeping up.  How does Acts of Solomon play currently

You exchange Acts of Solomon to your deck for a good enhancement. Since Acts is in battle when played, the exchanged for enhancement ends up being in battle after the exchange which causes its ability to activate. The ability on Acts then completes by putting the exchanged for enhancement in your hand.

While I think set rotation would be good, I personally love that we can find cool uses for older cards. I don't think acts of solomon in this form is too powerful or anything. It's just a slightly clunky way to recur an enhancement, or like a book of jashur that shuffles itself.

Actually, the interaction w/ Acts of Solomon and Book of Jashar is kinda scary.  But you need a hero that can play Gold and Blue to do it

What actually happens if you exchange Acts of Solomon for Book of Jashar?

I was trying to think through it, but I couldn't figure out what Book of Jashar copies and what cards end up where.