Author Topic: A way to negate CBN drawing? (Read 7966 times)

browarod · « **Reply #25 on:** March 24, 2015, 04:34:59 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 24, 2015, 04:19:55 PM

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2015, 04:02:40 PM
Protection limits targets. You cannot choose to target something unless it's a legal choice.

Negate doesn't limit targets, it just says that the negated ability doesn't work.
Right, so if you can't instead an ability to some other effect than how can you nullify that ability?

The negate isn't stopping the instead, it's stopping the ability caused by the instead. AUtO enters battle and attempts to draw. The god of this World says nuh-uh, I'm going to change your draw ability to my draw ability and make the number 1 less. The god of this World then attempts to draw and Iron Pan says nuh-uh, you don't get to draw anything.

Iron Pan doesn't care in the slightest that TgotW's draw was originally AUtO's draw, it just sees TgotW trying to draw and won't have any of that.

Redoubter · « **Reply #26 on:** March 24, 2015, 04:49:25 PM »

@YMT, it doesn't show up here because I am specifically assigned as a moderator for Rulings, but check out any of my posts on other boards

Thanks for the kind words, as always

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 24, 2015, 04:19:55 PM

Right, so if you can't instead an ability to some other effect than how can you nullify that ability?

I think browarod did a really good job of laying it out there, but I have a feeling you'll not be satisfied with the Simon vs Entrapping part, so can you please explain, in the same level of detail, what happens in the Simon vs Entrapping, and where you draw parallels to this? That will help us to answer your question more completely.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:13:37 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on March 24, 2015, 04:49:25 PM

@YMT, it doesn't show up here because I am specifically assigned as a moderator for Rulings, but check out any of my posts on other boards Thanks for the kind words, as always

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 24, 2015, 04:19:55 PM
Right, so if you can't instead an ability to some other effect than how can you nullify that ability?

I think browarod did a really good job of laying it out there, but I have a feeling you'll not be satisfied with the Simon vs Entrapping part, so can you please explain, in the same level of detail, what happens in the Simon vs Entrapping, and where you draw parallels to this? That will help us to answer your question more completely.

I believe what he is saying is simon the zealot goes up and protects your hand from opponents' cards. Entrapping Pharisees come up, reveal an N.T gray card to capture simon the zealot, or opponent may discard a card of hero's matching brigade instead. Since this would mean Entrapping Pharisees would be discarding a card from opponents hand, simons protect ability kicks in not allowing holder to discard card, so Simon, is auto captured.
I think that's what the hobbit was trying to say.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:15:28 PM »

If anything I said was wrong feel free to correct me

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TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:18:35 PM »

Right so in both cases the instead doesn't work because the conditions of it are not met.

browarod · « **Reply #30 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:49:52 PM »

The difference here, as I think someone said before, is that protect and negate function differently. Simon's protect means Entrapping Pharisees can't target your hand for the instead, so you're forced to allow your character to be captured. The instead tries to apply but its condition cannot be met so it fizzles.

In the case of TgotW/Iron Pan/AUtO, the instead on TgotW also triggers off of AUtO's draw ability and attempts to instead the draw. In this case there is nothing protecting AUtO from evil cards so TgotW's instead succeeds and changes the effect. Since TgotW is now the source of the draw, and he is not protected from negate, Iron Pan is able to negate the changed draw ability. The instead already happened and changed the ability, Iron Pan doesn't prevent or negate that. IP simply prevents the changed ability from happening.

There is nothing stopping the instead, and preventing the changed ability doesn't undo the instead. It targeted, it completed, the instead is done and over with. What happens to the changed ability after that is separate from the instead ability itself.

With Simon's protect, the instead never gets to complete because the cost can't be met. With TgotW the instead completes, but the changed ability is prevented.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #31 on:** March 25, 2015, 07:35:08 PM »

Also don't forget that ironpan/gotw is a 2 card combo (that I think needs a bab in play also?so 3) and auto is 1. I don't see the set up play winning against the stand alone so...

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #32 on:** March 25, 2015, 07:44:01 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 25, 2015, 07:35:08 PM

Also don't forget that ironpan/gotw is a 2 card combo (that I think needs a bab in play also?so 3) and auto is 1. I don't see the set up play winning against the stand alone so...

You would be right if this was the only situation where it is viable, or if Iron Pan was the only way to make this work, but this will affect every single draw ability your opponent uses, and on top of that, GOTW is still useful on his own, as it still halves the draw AUTO gives. I don't really think this is a bad thing... that being said, I don't think it will have a major impact since Rain Becomes Dust never really did, and that did essentially the same thing, except better and was a single card, the only disadvantage is that curses may be the easiest card type to get rid of, although evil characters are fairly close, but easier to protect, so we'll have to see.

dermo4christ · « **Reply #33 on:** March 25, 2015, 07:49:45 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 24, 2015, 02:11:03 PM

The god of this World has an implied "instead" even though the actual word isn't spelled out on the special ability. It takes one effect (draw X) and replaces it with another effect (draw X-1).

In the example described, AUtO's original draw 2 is replaced by a draw ability that is being negated. The result is a draw 0.

Congratulations, you've just found a way to slow down AUtO!

I thought AUTO was a CBN draw? How can anything negate a CBN? Maybe I'm just not understanding.

Praeceps · « **Reply #34 on:** March 25, 2015, 08:02:42 PM »

Auto isn't being negated, he's being insteaded by God of this World. And since the draw is now coming from GotW it can be negated so AUtO draws nothing.

Josh · « **Reply #35 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:17:06 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on March 25, 2015, 07:35:08 PM

Also don't forget that ironpan/gotw is a 2 card combo (that I think needs a bab in play also?so 3) and auto is 1. I don't see the set up play winning against the stand alone so...

Seven Years of Famine would be easier to use than Iron Pan, if you ask me.

Redoubter · « **Reply #36 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:38:55 PM »

Or the Pigs Lost Soul, yes, there are several options that would work. The main thing is that this would actually get around CBN draws and not be quite as squishy as a Curse, or vulnerable to counters as Cherubim, and as long as you have TgotW out it is at least making draw less useful and protecting from convert, so that's always nice.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 26, 2015, 10:50:54 AM »

Hypothetically what if a card negate discard abilities? Can you just "attempt" to use Herod's Temple an use it for no cost?

kram1138 · « **Reply #38 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:05:27 PM »

I still don't quite get it. If goTW's ability is a draw ability, isn't it negated and it never has a chance to instead the draw by AUtO?

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:06:05 PM »

Yes by the same token this demon requires that opponent draw -1 to instead.

Quote from: kram1138 on March 26, 2015, 12:05:27 PM

I still don't quite get it. If goTW's ability is a draw ability, isn't it negated and it never has a chance to instead the draw by AUtO?

That's what I am trying to say.

Josh · « **Reply #40 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:19:47 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 26, 2015, 12:06:05 PM

That's what I am trying to say.

So your question is, why is Herod's Temple a cost-benefit ability, when TgotW is not, and yet both are "Instead" abilities.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #41 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:22:15 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on March 26, 2015, 12:06:05 PM

Yes by the same token this demon requires that opponent draw -1 to instead.
Quote from: kram1138 on March 26, 2015, 12:05:27 PM
I still don't quite get it. If goTW's ability is a draw ability, isn't it negated and it never has a chance to instead the draw by AUtO?
That's what I am trying to say.

To further clarify, I think they mean that the ability is prevented before it can activate and instead AutO's ability, so it wouldn't stop the draw.

Drrek · « **Reply #42 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:38:53 PM »

Yeah, as much as I understand the logic for this ruling, I have to agree with the dissenters here. If you have to be able to do the cost of the instead on Herod's Temple (that is actually discarding cards), you should have to be able to do the "cost" on the god of this world. It doesn't really make sense for one to be ruled a cost-benefit, and the other to not be.

Gabe · « **Reply #43 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:42:09 PM »

Not all instead abilities are a cost/benefit. You can tell if a card is a cost benefit ability if it's worded "Do (pay) X to do Y". Since TgotW doesn't have that type of wording it's not a cost benefit ability.

Drrek · « **Reply #44 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:47:29 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 26, 2015, 12:42:09 PM

Not all instead abilities are a cost/benefit. You can tell if a card is a cost benefit ability if it's worded "Do (pay) X to do Y". Since TgotW doesn't have that type of wording it's not a cost benefit ability.

Except Herod's temple doesn't have that type of wording either.

"If your N.T. human is discarded by a special ability used by an opponent, you may discard a card of matching brigade from hand and the top X cards of your deck instead. Put Lost Souls in play instead."

There's no "to" in there like you bolded in your wording. The word instead isn't on the god of this world, but if it was you could put it here

"Protect Evil Characters from conversion. If an opponent would draw because of his special ability, he draws 1 less instead"

Its the same type of wording, yet one is somehow a cost-benefit, and the other is not.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #45 on:** March 26, 2015, 12:48:17 PM »

Herod's temple doesn't have that wording either http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Herod%E2%80%99s_Temple_(Di)
Instapost by drrek

Gabe · « **Reply #46 on:** March 26, 2015, 01:12:17 PM »

I didn't mention Herod's Temple. I'm still attempting to help you understand why TgotW interacts the way it does. I'm becoming convinced you don't want to understand though, in which case there's nothing more I can do. Topic closed.

**EDIT**

I've been messaged by others who desire to continue this discussion and believe the is some legitimacy in doing so. I've unlocked the thread, however if there is any trolling or disrespect toward other players, posts will be removed and it will be locked again.

Redoubter · « **Reply #47 on:** March 26, 2015, 06:59:25 PM »

I feel like there is a conversation to be had regarding this ability and whether you could do as TheHobbit suggested. The way that I am reading the rules, and precedent, I would rule that you are correct, in if you (somehow) negated just the discard component of Herod's Temple, you could instead for free any discard special ability used by an opponent.

I am in disagreement with Gabe's assessment on it, and I am also going to assume others, by taking this side, so it is IN NO WAY official.

However, despite my position on this, I'm not sure it matters specifically, because I'm not sure there exists a current card combination that would lead to a problem with either interpretation.

So, for those who have come up with this question, I challenge you to find one of the following:
1. A card combo that exploits HT in this way.
2. A different card combo that somehow breaks a normally 'cost-benefit' instead ability on a different card with the same situation.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #48 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:45:55 PM »

Goodness, Iron Pan, and an End the Battle ability. Assuming the draw is the cost for the insteading benefit.

The other issue is I don't really see TgoTW as cost-benefit, which is a rarity (if not the only) among the Instead abilities.

kram1138 · « **Reply #49 on:** March 26, 2015, 09:23:54 PM »

So the reason it works with goTW is because even though it's not worded like it, the ability is sort of in two parts? The first part insteads the draw, and the second makes them draw one less. So iron pan only negates the second part?

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Author Topic: A way to negate CBN drawing? (Read 7966 times)

browarod

TheHobbit13

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