Author Topic: A Rather Comlicated Silver Trumpets Scenario (Read 5928 times)

BubbleBoy · « **on:** February 22, 2010, 02:02:30 PM »

Alright, so I have an artifact in my Tabernacle and I make a rescue attempt with Eleazar, son of Aaron. I deactivate my tabernacle'd artifact and activate The Silver Trumpets. I then have initiative, so I band in a FbtN character (let's say Moses). Moses would then negate Eleazar's SA, thus negating the artifact, etc., making an infinite loop, right? (Naughty Moses, always interfering with the priests' rituals.) What is the outcome of this?

crustpope · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2010, 02:24:56 PM »

This loop happens every time that FBTN charachters are banded into battle. Basically any time a FBTN charachter is banded into battle, the SA that banded him into battle is usually negated thus putting him back in terriory, which allows the enhancement or SA to activate again that bands him back into battle, which Kicks him out.....

The way it was settled is that when you band in a FNTN charachter, it makes the battle FBTN but kicks the FBTN Charachter back to territory permanently.

In this instance, you would have a teal hero in a FBTN situation and that is how it would resolve.

SirNobody · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2010, 02:25:40 PM »

Hey,

It does not create an infinite loop because Moses cannot indirectly negate himself. So the original artifact would be active, The Silver Trumpets would not be used, the Elezazar would be in battle, Moses would be in your territory and it would be a by the numbers battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:02:47 PM »

So does FBTN always stick? Or just when the FBTN character is the one negating his being banded in? I was about to post and say that it would result how Tim said because FBTN sticks, but then I realized that might be the wrong reasoning. Here's an example:

RA Jake+Captain. Blocked by TFG. Captain is kicked out, but is it FBTN still, or not?

lightningninja · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:12:59 PM »

I don't believe it is, prof.

Korunks · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:16:07 PM »

I always thought that once a battle was tainted by FBN, it stayed FBN. Why would FBN stick to the battle in every other scenario and not this one? His band was negated, regardless of of who negated it, so it should resolve like a normal negated band.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:19:02 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on February 22, 2010, 03:12:59 PM

I don't believe it is, prof.

it is. they didn't negate the FBTN ability, they negated the band. the SA still took effect.

this is an awesome combo. 8/9 BTN teal... sweet.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:22:46 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on February 22, 2010, 02:25:40 PM

It does not create an infinite loop because Moses cannot indirectly negate himself.

Oh, right, because Eleazar is permanently negated for the battle. I wasn't thinking about that. I understand now.

I have a new question though: If your opponent uses a (interruptable) battle winner against you, can you use Silver Trumpets to band in a FbtN character in order to negate it? I always assumed you could not do this because the artifact doesn't say "interrupt the battle..." for the banding portion but according to the way we treat negate enhancements regarding "special initiative," I'm not absolutely sure.

If not, then can you play Jordan Interrupted and then band in a FbtN character, even if you don't play an enhancement? It does say "interrupt the battle"...

The Guardian · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:34:13 PM »

No. JI would need to resolve before you could activate Silver Trumpets. Once JI resolves (i.e. the next enhancement is played and resolves), the battle is no longer being interrupted.

Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

Korunks · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM »

Quote

Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2010, 05:15:46 PM »

It's the same way as if Jacob/Captain go against KoT, right? KoT's FBTN stops Captain's band making it Jacob vs. KoT, FBTN...I think...

Master KChief · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2010, 05:25:02 PM »

no, cap negates kot's special ability.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2010, 05:26:55 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on February 22, 2010, 05:25:02 PM

no, cap negates kot's special ability.

Correct. FBTN is negatable, but only by a CBN negate, such as 12FG, or Bringing Fear.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2010, 05:28:42 PM »

right, had a brain fart, forgot 12FG was CBN.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM

Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?

. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.

The Guardian · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2010, 06:19:39 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM

Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?

This is the same situation as playing Benaiah Snatches a Spear to negate Foolish Advice. Just to clarify myself--FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be negated (directly-->BSaS/FA or indirectly-->12FG negates the band of Jacob to Capt.) by another card

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2010, 06:34:47 PM »

so, if Maharai bands to Claudia who bands to ET, and then they play Words, Book of Hozai, Book of Jasher, and Reach, and then you block with 12FG, they have to put all the cards back?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2010, 06:50:58 PM »

No. The ability to play an enhancement cannot be interrupted, even indirectly. So since the enhancements were still able to be played, and they weren't directly negated, then you keep the cards. The battle would continue with Maharai and Words vs. TFG.

Korunks · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:22:43 PM »

When was this decided? I have never heard of FBTN battle not being a FBTN battle?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.

I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:28:40 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.

It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.

Example: You make an RA with a red hero that bands to a green hero. Opponent blocks and you play a green enhancement that does X affect. Opponent negates the red hero's ability. In this case, because the ability that brought the green hero into battle was negated, the green enhancement is negated too.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:39:40 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:28:40 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.

but it isn't negating it.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:41:59 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 07:39:40 PM

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:28:40 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.

It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #23 on:** February 22, 2010, 07:43:28 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:41:59 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 07:39:40 PM
Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:28:40 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.

how is this any different then Mahari (WA) to Ira (WA)

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #24 on:** February 22, 2010, 08:10:57 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 07:43:28 PM

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 07:39:40 PM
Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on February 22, 2010, 07:28:40 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 22, 2010, 07:23:30 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 22, 2010, 05:37:41 PM
Quote from: Korunks on February 22, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
Quote
Jacob/Captain blocked by 12FG results in Jacob v 12FG in a non-FBTN battle. FBTN cannot negate itself but it can be indirectly negated by another card.

This is contrary to everything I have read and heard about FBTN, where is this documented?
. I always thought that once FBTN took effect, you had to negate it with card that negated the ability.
I didn't think that negating a banding ability negated the banded character's ability.
It does. Negate makes it like it never happened, which means abilities that activated directly or indirectly are also negated.
but it isn't negating it.
It is. If the green hero never came into battle, the green enhancement never could have been played. Therefore, the ehn is negated.
how is this any different then Mahari (WA) to Ira (WA)

In that example, since the WA Maharai is not WC, the end result is Maharai in battle, Ira in territory, and the battle is FTBN-nonWC. The loop rule applies here, but I don't see how it is related my example.

If Ira had a weapon-class ehn, then the weapon would be negated even though it is WC because it was negated by negating Maharai's banding ability.

Maharai
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: White • Ability: 6 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: May band with any Hero in the blue brigade. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: I Chronicles 27:13 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)

Ira
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: 8 / 8 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Negate all special abilities on non-warrior class characters and non-weapon class enhancements. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: II Samuel 20:26 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Rare) • Background

News:

Author Topic: A Rather Comlicated Silver Trumpets Scenario (Read 5928 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk