Author Topic: A Paradox (Read 1808 times)

SignoftheStar · « **on:** October 27, 2013, 11:45:37 AM »

This paradox involves three cards:

Moses: Negate all Characters and Enhancements.
Piety of Mary: Ignore all cards depicting a False Religious Practice.
Golden Calf: Prevent all OT Heroes. Cannot be negated.

Moses enters battle against an opponent who has Golden Calf active. Golden Calf prevents Moses's ability. However, lets say Moses manages to get initiative. He plays Piety of Mary.
This is where it gets complicated.
Piety of Mary allows Moses to ignore all cards depicting a False Religious Practice. Golden Calf depicts a False Religious Practice (which the REG confirms), so it no longer prevents Moses's special ability. However, Moses's special ability negates all Characters and Enhancements- including Piety of Mary. Piety of Mary gets negated, which means that Moses is no longer ignoring Golden Calf. Golden Calf now goes back to preventing Moses.
This is how I understand it, however. Golden Calf CAN'T prevent Moses anymore. Moses is already active, and prevent abilities only stop cards' abilities PRIOR TO their activation. As such, Piety of Mary is negated, Golden Calf is not ignored, but Moses is not prevented.

Something tells me there might be more to this problem. If not, I still have this curiosity question: What would happen if Golden Calf NEGATED OT Heroes? How would this ever resolve?

Chris · « **Reply #1 on:** October 27, 2013, 12:14:45 PM »

Moses gets one chance to activate when he enters battle. In this case, it was prevented, and nothing you do (except possibly an interrupt - I'll let someone else get that) will reactivate Moses.

Redoubter · « **Reply #2 on:** October 27, 2013, 06:36:24 PM »

First, I have no idea what that card actually does, because ignoring an artifact would just grant immunity from the artifact. That does not stop negate/interrupt/prevent. However, it says it ignores the special abilities on those cards, which does not actually mean anything according to the rules, and I don't see an errata...can we get confirmation that it essentially negates those cards?

Second, Chris is correct, and this is one of the reasons why it is the case. If a card is prevented when played, it does not get the opportunity to activate later if the source of the prevention is negated.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2013, 07:00:48 PM »

Yeah, I understand now. I do. It's just one of those ideas in Redemption that I have to get through my head: if it's prevented, it doesn't stop being prevented; if it's interrupted, it starts up again; if it's negated, it doesn't stop being negated.

Not all that hard, really, but in cases like this it becomes fuzzy for some reason... I don't know.

Praeceps · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2013, 07:34:17 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on October 27, 2013, 07:00:48 PM

Yeah, I understand now. I do. It's just one of those ideas in Redemption that I have to get through my head: if it's prevented, it doesn't stop being prevented; if it's interrupted, it starts up again; if it's negated, it doesn't stop being negated.

Not all that hard, really, but in cases like this it becomes fuzzy for some reason... I don't know.

Not quite. It would(-ish) stop being prevented, it just wouldn't get a second chance to activate that battle.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2013, 08:52:02 PM »

...True enough, true enough.

OK, let's try this again: if it's prevented, the ability doesn't start up again; if it's interrupted, it starts up when the interrupt is over; if it's negated, it doesn't start up again; if something's immune to it, it activates but it can't target what's immune to it; if something's ignoring it, it activates but it can't target what's ignoring it.

There. Did I miss anything?

Praeceps · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2013, 10:04:43 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on October 27, 2013, 08:52:02 PM

...True enough, true enough.

OK, let's try this again: if it's prevented, the ability doesn't start up again; if it's interrupted, it starts up when the interrupt is over; if it's negated, it doesn't start up again; if something's immune to it, it activates but it can't target what's immune to it; if something's ignoring it, it activates but it can't target what's ignoring it.

There. Did I miss anything?

It also can't be targeted by what's ignoring it. Also if it's a character being ignored before it can enter battle, it won't activate as it can't get into the battle.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #7 on:** October 27, 2013, 11:45:36 PM »

Yeah, yeah, I know. I was just talking about the ability in particular. But I suppose another little clause should be in there...

One more time:

If an ability is prevented before it starts, it loses its chance to activate and cannot activate again.
If an ability is interrupted after it starts, it pauses until the interrupt is over and then starts up again.
If an ability is negated before it starts, it loses its chance to activate and cannot activate again.
If an ability is negated after it starts, it stops and cannot start up again.
If something is immune to an ability, it activates but it cannot target whatever is immune to it.
If something is ignoring a card with an ability before it is played, the card cannot be played so the ability never activates.
If something is ignoring a card with an ability after it is played, the ability activates but it cannot target whatever is ignoring it.

Praeceps · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2013, 11:36:08 AM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on October 27, 2013, 11:45:36 PM

Yeah, yeah, I know. I was just talking about the ability in particular. But I suppose another little clause should be in there...

One more time:

If an ability is prevented before it starts, it loses its chance to activate and cannot activate again.
If an ability is interrupted after it starts, it pauses until the interrupt is over and then starts up again as long as it is able to.
If an ability is negated before it starts, it loses its chance to activate and cannot activate again.
If an ability is negated after it starts, it stops and cannot start up again.
If something is immune to an ability, it activates but it cannot target whatever is immune to it.
If something is ignoring a card with an ability before it is played, the card cannot be played so the ability never activates.
If something is ignoring a card with an ability after it is played, the ability activates but it cannot target whatever is ignoring it.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2013, 09:59:20 PM »

... I'm sorry. When is an interrupted ability ever not able to start up again?

Praeceps · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2013, 11:07:37 PM »

If the character it was played on is removed from battle and no other character of like brigade is in battle.

I.E. Two bears:

If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into owner's deck.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #11 on:** October 30, 2013, 08:02:54 AM »

Ok, so an ability that is interrupted does not start up again if the card that was interrupted is not present to activate its ability when the interrupt is over. I feel like that kind of goes without saying, but that makes me wonder: do abilities that are activated stay active even when something happens to the card provided that it's not interrupted or negated beforehand?

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** October 30, 2013, 10:14:44 AM »

Card effects remain even if the originating card is removed (in the case of ongoing abilities, it remains active until the end of the phase). For example, if you play Split Altar (Shuffle all Artifacts of each opponent into owner's deck....) and shuffle an opponent's Four-Drachma Coin (Protect the cards in your hand and deck from discard abilities on opponents’ cards. At any time, if Peter is in play, you may discard this card to draw 4.) the protection would remain active until the end of the battle phase because Split Altar didn't negate 4DC.

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Author Topic: A Paradox (Read 1808 times)

SignoftheStar

A Paradox

Chris

Re: A Paradox

Redoubter

Re: A Paradox

SignoftheStar

Re: A Paradox

Praeceps

Re: A Paradox

SignoftheStar

Re: A Paradox

Praeceps

Re: A Paradox

SignoftheStar

Re: A Paradox

Praeceps

Re: A Paradox

SignoftheStar

Re: A Paradox

Praeceps

Re: A Paradox

SignoftheStar

Re: A Paradox

browarod

Re: A Paradox