Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Ignore does not only target the EC.  It also targets the hero, similar to how immune and protect target the hero.  Hero ignores females means a few things, kinda like this (this is very rough): "Hero can't be blocked by females.  Hero is immune to females.  Females are immune to the hero, but will lose the battle."  Notice the first sentence is a "cannot be" ability, which is a protect ability.  In rough terms, it is like "Hero is protected from being blocked by females."  This ability targets the Hero, not the EC.  Therefore, the EC need not be in play.  Only the hero need be in play for the ignore ability to work.

about NNFS:  NNFS says "ignore an evil brigade in battle."  That means you select a brigade in battle, and then ignore it.

No Need for Spices can't work as a pre-block ignore, since there are no evil brigades in battle to choose from.

Get it?

No Need for Spices makes sense when you put it that way, but I still really dislike ignores stopping people in my hand from blocking. When you say it's sorta like "______ may not enter battle", doesn't it need to first target all _______ that it can to say "hey, you can't enter battle." Idk, I just think its wierd how no other cards can impact cards in a players hand without specifying "opponents hand", yet ignore can.

This isn't a random new thing for me... I've always disliked this since I first heard about it. 

In answer to BubbleBoy... yes, Scarlet Line does still work.

Eve and Widow both say "Can't be blocked by..."

Those both target the hero, not the evil character.  "Can't be blocked by" is, by definition, the same as ignore.

That doesnt count... because it DOES target the hand. It says anything that is not in battle, which includes your hand. Therefore it indirectly states it. Also, I thought DD targeted the opponent, stating they are not allowed to play X without Y.

Just saying ignore X without stating what targets are viable means it  should default to in play... 

How does Household Idols work then? It's not being blocked... it's not even in battle. I would think HHI targets heroes.

You may say its a mere exception, but its a rather large exception if you ask me.

*EDIT* More things that make no sense to me:

The REG states that if you ignore a character that is immune to you, the battle results in a stalemate. Immune means that they cannot be targeted by abilities. Doesnt the stalemate mean that the ignore was not allowed to target the immune character?

Finally, We've started using the term "Cannot be ignored." Cannot be ____ means you are protected from that ability. How can you be protected from ignore, if ignore doesnt target you?

How does Household Idols work then? It's not being blocked... it's not even in battle. I would think HHI targets heroes.

HHI kinda protects the battle field from those heroes.

"Cannot be ignored" is kind of like "Cannot be negated," which is kind of like "Regardless of immunity."  They all allow the card to work AS IF that ability were not there.

 

Immunity isn't a protect ability?

"Cannot be Negated" makes a card work AS IF the negate isn't there.
"Regardless of Immunity" makes a card work AS IF the immunity isn't there.
"Can't be ignored" makes a card work AS IF the ignore isn't there.

In all three cases, the ongoing ability is not interrupted, not negated, not stopped at all:
The FBN state of the battle is not changed.  The CBN enhancement just works in spite of it.
The immunity on Red Dragon is not interrupted or removed.  The "Regardless of immunity" ability just works in spite of it.
The Ignore ability on the hero is not interrupted or suspended.  The evil character can just enter battle in spite of it.

The reason this is confusing is because, while "cannot be blocked by" is obviously worded as a protect ability, the grammar on ignore abilities makes it sound like it is targeting another card.

Hero cannot be blocked by female ECs. - easily understood as a protect ability ("cannot be" makes it obvious).
Hero ignores female ECs. - Sounds like you are targeting the ECs. But you are not. Treat that phrase as "cannot be blocked by..." and it makes sense.

HHI, when originally printed, did NOT function as an ignore.  It only negated band abilities.  I took a Elders of Jerusalem deck to nats that year and laughed at HHI.    Later it was decided, for the good of the game, and due to the "protect-type" wording on the card, that "good banding cards have no effect" should be treated like an ignore.  It was old wording that needed to be fit into the rock-paper-scissors idea, and ... it took a shoehorn.  And pliers.  And imagination.

"Have no effect" is kinda wonky when it appears on a card that is outside of battle, but it kinda "protects the field of battle" from having those characters step on it.  

Cannot be negated is NOT protection.  If it was protection, then it could be prevented.  "Cannot be negated" is scissors.

Cannot be negated is in a category SEPARATE from all other "cannot be" abilities.

According to the rules, "cannot be" and "may not be" in every OTHER instance is a protect, including "cannot be blocked by."  "Cannot be blocked by" is a protect (it is a rock).  "Cannot be negated" is not a protect (it is a scissors).

Trust me on this:

"Cannot be negated" abilities work when all special abilities are prevented.  How do they even get to activate their "cannot be negated" status, if their special abilities are prevented?  The only way they can is because they are given a special category in the rules.  They work in spite of prevents.

"Regardless of immunity" is exactly the same.  The special ability on Plague of Frogs only works because there is a special category for "regardless of immunity."  They work in spite of immunity.  The immunity on Red Dragon does not target Plague of Frogs.  The immunity on Red Dragon targets itself.  Plague of Frogs works in spite of that immunity.

I agree with you that there is no point in protecting yourself from a protect.  And, you are correct that "cannot be ignored" is worded as a protect.  According to the rules, if "cannot be ignored" were a protect, it would do absolutely nothing.  It would be the same thing as having a hero special ability like "Immune to immune abilities on evil characters."  Since immune abilities on evil characters do not target heroes, that ability does nothing. 

Therefore, "cannot be ignored" must function as "The character can block regardless of ignore."

Cannot be negated is NOT protection.  If it was protection, then it could be prevented.

Cannot be negated is in a category separate from all other "cannot be" abilities.

"Cannot be" and "may not be" in every other instance is a protect, including "cannot be blocked by."

Say what?? I see nothing in the REG that says this. *edit* the preventing it point makes sense... although, how could you prevent it when its already protecting itself from negates?

Cannot be Captured is though, so my point remains:

Cannot be
This is a protect ability. Cannot be taken prisoner, discarded, removed from the game, captured, or converted limits or protects the potential targets of the ability, just as ignore or immune or protect limits or protects the poten­tial targets of the ability.  For example, Elizabeth Elisabeths special abil­ity, “cannot be taken prisoner,” could be understood as “immune to capture.” “Cannot be” does not “prevent” or “negate” any­thing. It only limits the potential targets of a special ability.  An Evil Character blocking Elizabeth Elisabeth could still use Net to capture a Hero other than Elizabeth Elisabeth. Note: If the special ability of a card includes the words “cannot” or “may not” WITHOUT the word “be”, then this is a type of prevent. For instance, if a card states that Heroes may not band, this is not a protect, but a prevent because of the lack of the word” be”. Heroes would be PREVENTED from banding.

How can "Cannot be Ignored" limit the targets of Ignore, if the ignore doesnt even target it?

Ok, I get that CBN isnt a protect. My other point still stands... so lets talk about that now.

Therefore, "cannot be ignored" must function as "The character can block regardless of ignore."

I really dislike when cards are worded as one thing (a protect), but actually play as something completely different. Making exceptions for every type of ability just leads to a confusing mess... because I can't find anything in the current REG that says CBignored should be played like that. 

I see no problem with ignores targeting X ec's and saying "you cant enter battle." It'd make a lot more sense in terms of Cannot be Ignored, and it'd also allow blocking from hand as a method to combat preblock ignore. It'd be a whole lot cleaner, easier to understand, and IMO, balanced.

No offense to anyone, but this seems like sort of a "just because it does" kinda ruling to me. 

I think it should do what it says by targeting the characters.

Also, if "Cannot be ignored," which until something is clarified in the rules, seems to be a protect ability... why does the old ruling of being immune to a brigade with the Site Guard soul not do the same thing? Unless of course we have two "cannot be" abilities that arent actually protect abilities....

If it were worded "Regardless of ignore" like you said it should be played as, I think it'd be a lot less confusing. Adding extra entries for "cannot be ignored" would just confuse people, since there would be three types of "cannot be" abilities.

Also, I would word HHI to say "blah blah heroes cannot enter battle." instead of "blah blah heroes are ignored." Since based on the rules of ignore, HHI makes no sense as it is.

Clarify those things and I'll be much happier... since right now things just aren't lining up IMO.