Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If there an official definition for the word "alone"? I ask because for cards like peace that only work if the character is alone, is a character really alone if there is a EC in battle (remember in redemption, intent of the card doesn't matter).  I'm not saying that this is how it should work, only that I can't find a definition of what alone means and it should be codified that it means on your side of the battle

Peace: Place on your clay or blue Hero: When this Hero is in battle alone, toss all Enhancements played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.

Intent doesn't matter, look at cards like priestly breastplate, a new beginning, and how split alter was ruled for a long time as proof.  what matters it what the card says and the definition on the words on the card.  I also believe that it should be ruled as it was intended, which is why I'm asking if there is an official definition for alone

Again, I disagree. Intent does matter; that's why many cards receive errata so as to make it either functionally clearer and/or to be in line with what the designer's intent was when the card was created but somehow it did not get conveyed correctly in the printed version.

The fact that the cards need an errata to make them work shows that intent doesn't matter when making ruling, which is why the wording on the cards needs to changed to make them work as intended

I think we are talking about two sides of the same coin here. when I hear you say "intent matters" that to me means you are saying split alter should have been able to shuffle the art pile before the rule change, because that is how it was intended to work, which is not how redemption works.  when a card does not work as intended, we errata it, we don't play it like it was intended even when how the card is worded makes it play differently

I agree with sepjazz that the definition should be codified. I understand and agree with the desire to shorten SAs on cards by using "keywords" that have defaults, but those words need to be defined in order to be effective.

We have to keep in mind that, theoretically, new players are joining the game and are not aware of past rulings or the clarifying text that we used to use. They will read the card and do what makes sense at the time. I can certainly see how a new player would read this card and say, "Oh well, my character is not alone in battle because there is an EC in battle too."

I've taught several new players this game and I can tell you this issue has never come up with this wording on any related cards, such as Foreign Spearman or the like. When band is taught the new player understands that another character is brought into battle, causing the hero not to be alone any longer. So by the time the new player is exposed to cards like Peace or Foreign Spearman they have at least used a starter deck that has already taught them about band abilities, so they will understand that "alone" is clearly referring to a sole hero or EC in battle. Also, will a new player really be searching the REG to determine what "Alone" means anyways? Most new players never even know where or what the REG is or use the REG in the first place. As Kevin said it's clear that it's referring to the hero's side of battle, not if there is an EC in battle as well. And as I previously mentioned in my first post there is no functionality to this "alone" ability if you never have initiative  to play an enh in the first place.

Quote from: Watchman492 on July 28, 2017, 10:31:50 AM

I've taught several new players this game and I can tell you this issue has never come up with this wording on any related cards, such as Foreign Spearman or the like.

Never come up for you.... I certainly hope you can agree that people from other playgroups and states have different experiences than you have. 

Then I would encourage any other player or tournament host on this forum to cite an example of this particular topic arising during any of their play experiences. More specifically, I would ask YMT or Jazz to cite an example of this coming up during any of your play experiences. I seriously doubt anyone else has experienced this either.

I guess it just confuses me that people always say the REG is too big and "who has time to read the REG?" but then they want every single word ever used on a Redemption card to have a definition...

There are a lot of things that need to be codified--rules that have been in place for years and may have been stated in an older version of the REG and got lost during overhauls, or were meant to be added and never were for some reason or another. Don't get me wrong, proofing the REG is a continuous process that we do want help on. Personally I don't feel a definition for "lone" or "alone" is needed, but as a team, we'll take the feedback into consideration.

A "lone gunman" means he was the only gunman, not that nobody else was around. A "lone Hero" means there aren't any other heroes in battle. It's not very complicated. Peace is worded slightly differently but it is clearly the same mechanic as described "lone."

That said, it should have a glossary entry.

If two people are fighting in a room, would you say either of those people are alone in the room?  It all depends on your frame of reference. 

The fact you are saying it should have a glossary entry means that you see how it can be interpreted different ways.  There have been other people here that see it the same way as I do, as less than 100% clear.  I'm not saying that it should be ruled any differently than it is now, only that it should be defined because any time 2 people are together, they are not alone.  The primary definition of alone says "in no one else's presence" which would not be true of having 2 opposing characters in battle.

It should have a glossary entry because every Redemption term should, not because it's currently confusing.

 

I cannot express how much I agree with this. The rulebook is for learning how to play and finding answers to simple questions, the purpose of something like the REG is to be as exhaustive as possible. More definitions make the game better.