Author Topic: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles  (Read 1855 times)

Offline Josh

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Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« on: May 16, 2016, 12:48:45 PM »
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Since whatever combo I come up with using these two cards is sure to result in a NPE for my opponent, I might as well not keep this a secret...

While blocking with Users of Curious Arts, I play Momentum Change, then I play Mimicking Miracles and copy Momentum Change.  After battle, do both of these get returned to my hand?  Seems to me that MC would return MM to my hand, and MM would return MC to my hand.

Momentum Change - "Return all Evil Enhancements except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle. Errata/Play As: Return all Evil Enhancements in this battle that were used by this Evil Character except this one to holder's hand if Evil Character loses in battle."

Mimicking Miracles - "If used by a magician, you may copy the special ability of an enhancement until end of turn."
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2016, 12:55:56 PM »
+1
I'm fairly certain that back in the day it was ruled that playing 2 copies of Momentum Change in the same battle did not result in either being returned to hand. The same would apply here.
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Offline kram1138

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2016, 01:26:32 PM »
+1
I could see that 2 MCs would not work since it says "this evil enhancement", referring to the card Momentum Change, so no MCs would return. But MM is a different card, since it only copies the SA. Would it then not return other copies of MM, but still return MC?
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2016, 01:33:40 PM »
+1
I agree with Kram's perspective. Because MM only copies the ability, they are different cards.
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2016, 02:30:41 PM »
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I'm fairly certain that back in the day it was ruled that playing 2 copies of Momentum Change in the same battle did not result in either being returned to hand. The same would apply here.

The reason why is because when you play the first momentum change "this card"  is extrapolated to all momentum changes. At least that's how the interpretation went. Otherwise, if it was only referring to the momentum change you just played the momentum changes would recur each other. The way it works here is Momentum change recurs MM and MM recurs momentum change, and obviously they are both recurring everything else.

@ JM Laban would be nice too! And with the knew love of money any ec will do  ;)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 02:33:17 PM by TheHobbit »

Offline Gabe

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2016, 04:12:49 PM »
+1
Justin is accurate on his citing of the old ruling. The Hobbit is correct on the reason given. At the time it was released it was best for the game that Momentum Change could not return other copies of itself to hand. The ruling was very "bottom up", which was the norm in those days.

In light of the way Momentum Change is worded I really don't see how we can continue to rule it that way today. If we want it to continue working like the old ruling, we should probably just issue errata.

Regardless of what we do with Momentum Change, I can't see any reason it won't combo with Mimicking Miracles.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 05:00:59 PM by Gabe »
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2016, 05:11:32 PM »
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Regardless of what we do with Momentum Change, I can't see any reason it won't combo with Mimicking Miracles.

Unless it were errata'd to "except Momentum Change" instead of "this card," since that would still not return MC to your hand after the battle.  I think we should discuss this one further obviously, as I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that playtesting all occurred under the existing ruling on this sort of scenario.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2016, 05:29:13 PM »
+1
Unless it were errata'd to "except Momentum Change" instead of "this card," since that would still not return MC to your hand after the battle.  I think we should discuss this one further obviously, as I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that playtesting all occurred under the existing ruling on this sort of scenario.

I think maybe I was clear as mud. They joys of trying to communicate over text.  ::)

As things stand right now, Momentum Change does not return itself, but it can return Mimicking Miracles. Mimicking Miracles (copying Momentum Change) cannot return itself, but it can return Momentum Change. I don't see any reason this won't work.

We vetted Mimicking Miracles as best we could, knowing full well it was a card for combo players and that people will most likely find things we overlooked. I personally didn't think about or test the interaction with Momentum Change. Maybe others did. But there's nothing we need to do to stop this card interaction. If it's proven to create a game state that's broken and unfair, we can address it. I don't want to see us preemptively respond to someone's fun idea so I'm not in any way suggesting an errata (at this time) to cease the interaction between Momentum Change and Mimicking Miracles. It would be a sad day to take away combo players new toy before they get to do fun stuff with it.

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My suggestion to errata Momentum Change is something different all together that the elders will need to discuss. Based on what Momentum Change says I just can't wrap my mind around why it was ruled the way it was apart from our predecessors knowing it would have been bad for the game at the time. It seems like that ruling was to prevent brokenness during a time when that would have been far more powerful that other things that existed in the game.

In today's game double Momentum Change might not be nearly as scary. If it is, and we don't want an easy one brigade recursion combo then we can issue an errata to keep the status quo with Momentum Change.
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Offline Legolas

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2016, 05:44:34 PM »
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For mimicking miracles it has to copy an enhancement in play? is that correct?


Offline The Guardian

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2016, 06:06:59 PM »
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For mimicking miracles it has to copy an enhancement in play? is that correct?

Yes.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2016, 02:19:26 AM »
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Unless it were errata'd to "except Momentum Change" instead of "this card," since that would still not return MC to your hand after the battle.  I think we should discuss this one further obviously, as I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that playtesting all occurred under the existing ruling on this sort of scenario.

I think maybe I was clear as mud. They joys of trying to communicate over text.  ::)

As things stand right now, Momentum Change does not return itself, but it can return Mimicking Miracles. Mimicking Miracles (copying Momentum Change) cannot return itself, but it can return Momentum Change. I don't see any reason this won't work.

We vetted Mimicking Miracles as best we could, knowing full well it was a card for combo players and that people will most likely find things we overlooked. I personally didn't think about or test the interaction with Momentum Change. Maybe others did. But there's nothing we need to do to stop this card interaction. If it's proven to create a game state that's broken and unfair, we can address it. I don't want to see us preemptively respond to someone's fun idea so I'm not in any way suggesting an errata (at this time) to cease the interaction between Momentum Change and Mimicking Miracles. It would be a sad day to take away combo players new toy before they get to do fun stuff with it.

*************

My suggestion to errata Momentum Change is something different all together that the elders will need to discuss. Based on what Momentum Change says I just can't wrap my mind around why it was ruled the way it was apart from our predecessors knowing it would have been bad for the game at the time. It seems like that ruling was to prevent brokenness during a time when that would have been far more powerful that other things that existed in the game.

In today's game double Momentum Change might not be nearly as scary. If it is, and we don't want an easy one brigade recursion combo then we can issue an errata to keep the status quo with Momentum Change.
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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2016, 04:09:54 AM »
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In all honesty I'm not really sure why even 2 Momentum Changes recurring each other would be so bad. They only recur the enhancements if you lose the battle which means you're either giving up a soul every time you get to take back your enhancements, or you're somehow failing the battle but successfully blocking (perhaps with LS protection). As soon as you play your enhancements once your opponent will know you have them and can plan accordingly to try and fizzle whatever strategy you used on their next attack (Mayhem springs immediately to mind). You'll also likely lose an Evil Character every time. Is this really a bad set of circumstances?

Offline Josh

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2016, 08:13:47 AM »
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In all honesty I'm not really sure why even 2 Momentum Changes recurring each other would be so bad. They only recur the enhancements if you lose the battle which means you're either giving up a soul every time you get to take back your enhancements, or you're somehow failing the battle but successfully blocking (perhaps with LS protection). As soon as you play your enhancements once your opponent will know you have them and can plan accordingly to try and fizzle whatever strategy you used on their next attack (Mayhem springs immediately to mind). You'll also likely lose an Evil Character every time. Is this really a bad set of circumstances?

The thing about Momentum Change is its unique potential to allow infinite combos, where one person (in one turn) basically wins the game and the other person can't do anything about it.  It's very difficult to do, because the EC that used MC has to be defeated somehow, but with the ruling that generic characters can enter battle any number of times per battle, it can be done.  It's done using some combination such as Wandering Spirit/generic Gray demon/banding EE, or Strange Fire/Torment/banding EE, etc.

The fact that MC also happens to be in the same brigade as False Peace, the mother of all combo set-up cards, makes it more dangerous.

MC + MM would be very difficult to do this with, because you'd have to use a generic magician.  MC + MC is a whole other story.
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Offline Redoubter

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 08:34:39 AM »
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Words of Discouragement plus infinite MC would be rough. Though you do have to lose.

Offline kram1138

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 08:52:06 AM »
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Someone around these parts has run a T2 MC + Bearing Bad News + False Peace suicide deck for quite a while. Block with a low grey EC, play both then die. As long as you have a low numbers unique EC to play it on, that's up to 8 difficult to stop blocks. Plus you can use False Peace to set up your next block.
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browarod

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2016, 10:01:42 AM »
+1
I acknowledge that MC x2 could be worse than I first thought. In regards to MC + MM, though, the difficulty of setting up that combo, and that it's not as abusable as straight up MC x2, makes me feel initially like it would probably be okay. It would require a lot of investment and setup so I feel like if you could pull it off you deserve to have it work.

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Re: Momentum Change + Mimicking Miracles
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2016, 10:36:27 AM »
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Someone around these parts has run a T2 MC + Bearing Bad News + False Peace suicide deck for quite a while. Block with a low grey EC, play both then die. As long as you have a low numbers unique EC to play it on, that's up to 8 difficult to stop blocks. Plus you can use False Peace to set up your next block.

Pair that with the roman jailer with Nam's Horses, and that could be really powerful!
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