Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I'd love to have an "on call" Elder, and not hold a game while we wait for someone to respond to a post.

Quote from: Bryon on June 09, 2011, 10:32:45 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 02, 2011, 07:35:41 PM

"Protect" is officially defined as "protection from specified special abilities" in the Glossary. No host should rule otherwise until an official announcement from the Elders overrules this.

The Glossary is outdated.  Count this part as official: the above should read:

"protection from specified effects"

What are the "specified" effects, then?

The effects specified on the card with the protect ability. 

If it says "protected from capture" then it protects from all capture effects (in this case, all such effects are special abilities).
   
If it says "protected from discard" then it protects from all discard effects (from special abilities OR from discard effects of game rules such as zero toughness, losing by numbers, etc.). 

If it says "Protected from evil cards" then it protects from all effects of evil cards (from special abilities OR other effects of those evil cards, such as if one wins by numbers.)

If it says "protected from rescue by heroes" then it protects them from all rescue effects heroes can give (from rescue special abilities on enhancements like Primary Objective, and from rescue effects that heroes give by game rule when they win a rescue attempt).

at a certain point it just becomes easier to make thad illegal.......

Also, immune characters can be targeted. While this usually doesn't matter, if you use Zeal with Mechizedek and the only 3 characters in play are your opponent's Grey EC, your opponent's Black EC in battle holding Goliath's Armor, and your Black EC, you could target the Grey EC and the one with Goliath's Armor. Zeal simple wouldn't do anything to the latter. If, however, the only three EC's in play are your opponent's Grey EC in battle, his Assyrian in territory with Camp, and your Pale Green EC, you'd have to target the one in battle and your own.

Quote from: Bryon on June 12, 2011, 11:13:10 AM

If it says "Protected from evil cards" then it protects from all effects of evil cards (from special abilities OR other effects of those evil cards, such as if one wins by numbers.)

So... Thadd cannot be killed by numbers?

If that's true, then I'm disappointed with this ruling.

Protection of Angels would also have the same result.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on June 09, 2011, 04:40:45 PM

Quote from: Bryon on June 09, 2011, 10:32:45 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 02, 2011, 07:35:41 PM

"Protect" is officially defined as "protection from specified special abilities" in the Glossary. No host should rule otherwise until an official announcement from the Elders overrules this.

The Glossary is outdated.  Count this part as official: the above should read:

"protection from specified effects"

What are the "specified" effects, then?

The effects specified on the card with the protect ability. 

If it says "protected from capture" then it protects from all capture effects (in this case, all such effects are special abilities).
   
If it says "protected from discard" then it protects from all discard effects (from special abilities OR from discard effects of game rules such as zero toughness, losing by numbers, etc.). 

If it says "Protected from evil cards" then it protects from all effects of evil cards (from special abilities OR other effects of those evil cards, such as if one wins by numbers.)

If it says "protected from rescue by heroes" then it protects them from all rescue effects heroes can give (from rescue special abilities on enhancements like Primary Objective, and from rescue effects that heroes give by game rule when they win a rescue attempt).

This'd be the ruling.

The way I read the ruling then, is that Thaddeus CAN be discarded by the numbers, because the evil character is not doing the discarding, A game rule is.  The game rule is effecting Thaddeus, not the Evil Character.  Likewise for Protection of angels, although I am not sure where that play as came from.

Then until an official ruling is announced you should rule that way at your tournament(s). Let your players know in advance that is how you will be ruling so nobody is caught by surprise during a game.

This question is being discussed by the elders and Rob but it's not as quick and simple as it might appear to some. We will let you know when we come to an official decision.

Regarding protection and discard by numbers, I've always played that only "protected from discard" would stop death by numbers...

Quote from: Korunks on June 14, 2011, 12:28:02 PM

The way I read the ruling then, is that Thaddeus CAN be discarded by the numbers, because the evil character is not doing the discarding, A game rule is.  The game rule is effecting Thaddeus, not the Evil Character.  Likewise for Protection of angels, although I am not sure where that play as came from.

If you rule that way at your tournament, then be prepared to say that Belshazzar's Banquet doesn't protect lost souls from rescue by a hero, since the lost souls are only rescued by a game rule, and not by a hero.  Also, be prepared to rule that High Priests' Palace does not protect Sadducees from discard by decrease by Crown of Thorns, since the Sadducee is discarded by game rule, and not by a discard ability.

Or, maybe you should just rule that "protect" includes protecting from the effects of game rules.

So I should rule that Thaddeus protects from discard by numbers?  I guess if I didn't then I would have to rule the other cards the way you described to be consistent.  I just have a hard time ruling that Thaddeus can not be killed by the numbers, since he does not specifically state that he is protected from Discard.  I don't see how the High Priest's Palace ruling fits into this since that ruling has little to do with the source of the discard, it seemed more concerned with the scope of the protect.  This issue I believe has to do with source of the effect, and I guess it all comes down to what is the source of an effect in Redemption?  For cards like Belshazzar's Banquet the Game Rule that rescue's the Lost Soul is triggered by a hero winning the battle and BB stops that, so I guess it makes sense to say that if an evil character wins the battle then the game rule performing the discard was triggered by the evil character and Thaddeus would stop that as well.  I guess in retrospect I agree, Thaddeus has to protect from discard by the numbers, or we need to change rulings on other protect cards to be consistent.

You are correct that the heart of the issue seems to be the source of the effects. 

That is under debate by playtesters right now.

I've always understood that an enhancement used by a character is credited as the character performing that action.  For example, if Lot's Wife uses Net, then she gets credit for the capture for purposes of Raiders' Camp.  If I am protected from the character, then I am protected from anything done by that character.

That's always how immunity has worked as well.

Can we just ban Thaddeus? That's so much easier to explain.

They could always just use TGT.