Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I would guess the end result is Foreign Sword stays negated, probably. I have no reason to say this except it is the simplest way to resolve this situation since loops that go nowhere really aren't good for the game.

I think I agree that Foreign Sword should not get another chance to activate.

It's not activating again.  The ability that negated it was negated, and instant abilities that were interrupted can resume operation if the interrupt was negated.

Quote from: BubbleBoy on December 02, 2011, 07:43:23 AM

I think I agree that Foreign Sword should not get another chance to activate.

It's not activating again.  The ability that negated it was negated, and instant abilities that were interrupted can resume operation if the interrupt was negated.

That's only true if the instant ability didn't complete. In this situation, Foreign Sword completes before it's negated, so when Tower kicks back in negating Moses, Sword doesn't do anything further. It's already gotten it's activation.

The end result of this scenario is Your Gathered Canaanite + Moses in battle, with Tower+EC in territory. The battle is not FBTN since Moses is being negated.

No loop. Nice try though.

Foreign Sword completes before it's negated, so when Tower kicks back in negating Moses, Sword doesn't do anything further. It's already gotten it's activation.

The end result of this scenario is Your Gathered Canaanite + Moses in battle, with Tower+EC in territory. The battle is not FBTN since Moses is being negated.

No loop.

Agreed.

How does it not cease to be negated when the thing that negated it is negated, that is, Moses? Think of it this way. Say I play an enhancement that discards (just like FS) an evil character. Now my opponent decides to negate my battle winner (like Moses) and save his evil character. At this point, if I have initiative, I can play a negate that negates his negate (like Tower) essentially unegating the battle ender and allowing it to activate again. It would seem, according to your description of the FS scenario, that the battle winner I played earlier would not activate again because it, "already did and was negated". Now within the rules we know the the battle ender will activate again so why does FS activate again?


Instaposted by Stamp

I think the difference between a battle ender and the Tower example above is this:

Tower - FS activates, targets, and completes. Tower and the ECs end up in the discard pile. FS is completely done. Moses enters battle and negates FS bringing Tower and the ECs back. Tower then negates Moses but since FS was completely done when it was negated, it doesn't try to complete since it already did.

Ender - Battle ender activates, targets, but doesn't complete because of special initiative. Blocker plays a negate to negate the battle ender, you negate their negate. Battle ender then tries again to complete but still can't due to special initiative (until the blocker passes).


I don't know that I agree with this, but I think it's what RDT and Bryon are saying.

I think the difference between a battle ender and the Tower example above is this:

Tower - FS activates, targets, and completes. Tower and the ECs end up in the discard pile. FS is completely done. Moses enters battle and negates FS bringing Tower and the ECs back. Tower then negates Moses but since FS was completely done when it was negated, it doesn't try to complete since it already did.

Ender - Battle ender activates, targets, but doesn't complete because of special initiative. Blocker plays a negate to negate the battle ender, you negate their negate. Battle ender then tries again to complete but still can't due to special initiative (until the blocker passes).


I don't know that I agree with this, but I think it's what RDT and Bryon are saying.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

There is a difference between negating due to special initiative and regular initiative

After some more thought, I see that there is a loop.  But I think that the loop should be broken where RDT suggests.

Here is another scenario with similar affect:

RA with Micah, shuffle 1 enhancement from discard pile to deck.
Block Herodias.  Hero player passes.  Herodias uses Mask of Fear.
This negates Micah, and he takes out the enhancement he shuffled.
Micah uses Benaiah Snatches a Spear and negates Mask of Fear.
The green enhancement should be shuffled back into the deck.  It doesn't create a loop, so Micah's ability (which was negated with regular initative) should be allowed to re-apply.

In situations where a loop is created, I think that the best place to break the loop is by not allowing a card negated with regular initative to reapply.

After some more thought, I see that there is a loop.  But I think that the loop should be broken where RDT suggests.

Here is another scenario with similar affect:

RA with Micah, shuffle 1 enhancement from discard pile to deck.
Block Herodias.  Hero player passes.  Herodias uses Mask of Fear.
This negates Micah, and he takes out the enhancement he shuffled.
Micah uses Benaiah Snatches a Spear and negates Mask of Fear.
The green enhancement should be shuffled back into the deck.  It doesn't create a loop, so Micah's ability (which was negated with regular initative) should be allowed to re-apply.

In situations where a loop is created, I think that the best place to break the loop is by not allowing a card negated with regular initative to reapply.

This makes a lot more sense than what you guys were saying earlier, and is easy to explain to newer players.  Thanks for taking the time to make a great ruling.  (Fewer headaches for me, yay!)

It will be a loop break, but I'm not really sure what you mean by a cascading break.  Can you provide a specific example?

I don't know.  I was mainly thinking hypothetically.  For years cascading negates have helped to resolve nested negates of two or more.  The examples given so far have a series of two negates.  I guess I could work with expanding on Hobbit's example to research the impact of having a series of more thna two negates.