Cactus Game Design Message Boards

1. Yes. Lampstand was ruled that it can protect from Falling Away (W) so it protects Set-Aside if it protects LoR.

2. If your meaning CoW Moses, he retriggers when he enters battle and returns to territory. The non-TC ones are only active in battle.

3. I don't remember "each turn" specifically, I believe it's all player's turns... but don't quote me on that.

megamanlan is correct on the first two points. Watchman492 is accurate on the third.

It was recently ruled that destruction can target lampstand.

Does it protect itself from Evil dominance? Like destruction of Nehushtan?

DoN suffers from old wording. It first discards. Since LotS is protected it cannot be targeted. It then negates. Since negate trumps protect LotS can be targeted. So DoN can negate LotS but cannot discard it.

Quote from: Jeremystair on April 10, 2017, 09:21:50 AM

Does it protect itself from Evil dominance? Like destruction of Nehushtan?

DoN suffers from old wording. It first discards. Since LotS is protected it cannot be targeted. It then negates. Since negate trumps protect LotS can be targeted. So DoN can negate LotS but cannot discard it.

I thought the ruling was that it made it negate then discard (flip-flopped the wording). If it's negating it then why can't it discard it too?

He said because the discard happens first and then it's negated.

I get that but then why can DoN negate it first even if it trumps discard but then can t discard Lampstand once the protect ability is negated? It would seem to me that once the negation of the protection works then then discard ability would kick in.

Targets are chosen when an ability activates. The discard ability activates first, at which time LotS is protected and not a legal target. Next, when the negate ability kicks in we're past the point of choosing targets for the discard. The discard ability doesn't get a 2nd try.

And that's why I'd love to see a reprint of DoN just to fix that.

Quote from: Gabe on April 10, 2017, 11:18:33 AM

Targets are chosen when an ability activates. The discard ability activates first, at which time LotS is protected and not a legal target. Next, when the negate ability kicks in we're past the point of choosing targets for the discard. The discard ability doesn't get a 2nd try.

And that's why I'd love to see a reprint of DoN just to fix that.

Ditto.

It doesn't seem like it would even be able to negate it.

In Redemption, there is a formula for determining how different special abilities affect each other. It works like rock paper scissors:

-Protect and Ignore abilities are Rock.
-Interrupt, Prevent, and Negate abilities are Paper.
-Cannot be interrupted, Cannot be prevented, and Cannot be negated are Scissors.

So you can negate Lampstand with Destruction because Negate (Paper) beats Protect (Rock).

Does it then negate all artifacts in play?

No. When Destruction says "Artifact's ability", it is referring to the target of the previous part of the ability.
And technically, since you can target the Lampstand for the discard- it just won't do anything- you can then target it for the negate, which will succeed as explained above.

I agree with you that this wording may seem to contradict that a protected card may be targeted but it is the protect ability itself which may be prevented/interrupted/negated first, then the card may be targeted by other abilities it was protected from such as discard

So DoN says "Discard one active of artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated" it can't be targeted by the discard ability. So the only way the artifact is negated is if it is targeted. But it cannot be targeted because it's protected from discard abilities. So the second part should not even be able to happen because the first part cannot Target the card that it's trying to Target.

REG

Immune and protect abilities keep the target from being affected by the strength on cards to which it is immune or protected, keep the target from being able to be targeted by cards to which it is immune or protected, and also allow it to be unaffected by game rules which would normally affect it.

A similar argument could be made for when a NT hero is against Emp. Claudius (who is protected against NT heroes.  Cannot be Prevented).  But if I play Elymas Struck Blind, Mercy of James, Miracle at the Gate, Preaching in the Synagogue, or any other card played by an NT hero that interrupts or negates the protection ability, I am targeting the protect ability.  Technically he's being targeted by a NT hero when the NT hero plays the card, but whenever you interrupt an ability then the interrupt/negate ability works b/c the interrupt/negate is targeting the ABILITY of the target card.  So DoN's negating ability can affect the protect ability of Lampstand even if it's protected from cards that try to harm it because the protection ability is being negated.

I thought that cards that lasted over a phase become CBN, is this no longer true?

I thought that cards that lasted over a phase become CBN, is this no longer true?

I believe this is a misunderstanding of the rules. It's true that an ability that has completed in a previous phase cannot be negated. But if all or part of an ability goes beyond the phase in which it activated it can still be negated during any phase in which it is active.

Here's an example - Abomination of Desolation is placed in your territory during the opponent's preparation phase using High Places. The place ability completed during the prep phase and cannot be negated later during the battle phase. But the rest of Abom's ability, the part that discards when you draw, can be negated during any other phase. Like if you rescue with Moses (Wa) who negates special abilities on characters and Enhancements Abom cannot discard stuff if you draw cards but it will not become "unplaced" because that portion completed earlier in the game.