Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Master Q on September 14, 2010, 11:59:02 PM
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This has been bugging me since I found out that the 2/3-Liners abilities were un-negatable, so I just thought I'd ask. If the ability on the card is not a special ability, but merely an identifier, than can you have as many as you want in a normal, 56 card type-1 deck, since it has been ruled to have no special ability? Could I use, say, 7 of them in Booster Draft? Help me out, I must be missing some obvious rule that says you cannot do this, but you can use all the same LSs in booster if they have no special ability, so why would this be different?
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: This card counts as two Lost Souls. It must be rescued twice. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: None • Verse: Proverbs 22:14 • Availability: Limited booster packs (Rare)
Type: Lost Soul • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: This card counts as two Lost Souls. It must be rescued twice by the same player to count. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Play As: This card counts as 2 Souls. After it is rescued once by a player, it remains in the Land of Bondage and is protected from rescue, except by the same player. On the second rescue, this card goes to the Land of Redemption. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Proverbs 22:14 • Availability: Unlimited booster packs (Rare)
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I understand what you're saying and it doesn't really make sense but
Three/two liner follows the same rules as any other special ability lost soul, the ability was made an identifier to keep it from being negateable.
It doesn't really make sense but that's just how it is
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sweeeet, good question
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I would tend to argue that technically you could, but for deckbuilding purposes, I would say no since you could just tap all of your 2/3-Liners and the opponent wouldn't ever get a rescue. Why? Something about wanting equal opportunity to win. Plus, if this was done, games would time out more and scores would be like 4-2.
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good question. answers from elders please.
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I think the question here is if it still has both a SA and identifier, or is the SA converted to an identifier.
Secondly, you can only have three of a card with no SA in a standard T1 deck.
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its an identifier.
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its an identifier.
So we can have up to three EACH of a 2-liner AND 3-liner?
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There needs to be an elder awake around here... Pity they all have these fancy "jobs". I don't think you can do it, though.
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There needs to be an elder awake around here... Pity they all have these fancy "jobs". I don't think you can do it, though.
Jobs are teh dumbz. You should, since technically the "ability" is an identifier, not an ability.
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true
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Secondly, you can only have three of a card with no SA in a standard T1 deck.
I thought you could have as many of the same no special ability Lost Soul in a deck? I've always played booster with 7 of the same, no special ability Lost Soul.
I understand what you're saying and it doesn't really make sense but
Three/two liner follows the same rules as any other special ability lost soul, the ability was made an identifier to keep it from being negateable.
It doesn't really make sense but that's just how it is
If the ability was made an identifier, than why does it still have a special ability for deckbuilding purposes? When they used their "errata magic marker", why didn't they just slap the words, CANNOT BE NEGATED instead of making the ability an identifier? It would have made more sense and these types of questions (why can't I negate the 2/3 liners ability? or this question) wouldn't be around anymore.
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I think this falls into more of a "spirit of the game" sort of thing than legalism
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it doesnt work cause its too OP'ed should not be an excuse in my book.
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The "special ability" is an identifier so it cannot be negated. This was done to avoid broken situations where you rescue the LS once but it counts for 2 in your Land of Redemption. But the Lost Souls also has a limitation just like all special ability Lost Soul cards, of 1 per 50.
You can argue that it doesn't make sense or line up with the current rules. I haven't had time to study them but your probably right. If that's the case then we need to review that and adjust the wording of the rules to accommodate the Lost Souls card. Still you're not going to find any tournament host that allows you to play 7 Lost Souls cards in your T1 deck. :)
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Here's my answer:
It says to treat the SA as an identifier. Thus it has an SA that has all the characteristics of an identifier. Thus it still has an SA. Should this be changed? Probably.
I would suggest either:
A. Modifying the rule to "All Lost Souls with SA's and/or identifiers have a limit of 1 per 50."
B. Changing the Errata to "This Lost Soul....Cannot be negated."
No other generic Lost Souls have identifiers. So I would probably go with A. But either would work.
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I would suggest either:
A. Modifying the rule to "All Lost Souls with SA's and/or identifiers have a limit of 1 per 50."
B. Changing the Errata to "This Lost Soul....Cannot be negated."
No other generic Lost Souls have identifiers. So I would probably go with A. But either would work.
I would agree entirely with either of these, I just want something that explains it better, because the way I was reading it was that its special ability was "removed" and placed in as an identifier, ergo no special ability, ergo more than 1. It would be completely broken to have more than 1 in a 50 card deck, as in, oh, instead of blocking an average of 4 times a game, now you only have to block once, play confusion on SoG, and gg. ;)
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well that explains it away...i mean fixes it. ;D
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Isn't OT/NT an identifier? We now have cards that target souls of a specific testament...
I vote for just slapping CBN on the ability and be done with it.
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Isn't OT/NT an identifier? We now have cards that target souls of a specific testament...
OT and NT are only identifiers for cards that don't have printed verses (such as the emperors), I believe. For ones with printed verses, it's just a printed value on the card.
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I second the vote for a simple CBN.
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I third this vote
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fourth it
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I vote ban it ;D
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It's not like this is a democratic process or anything.
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I voted against your post because the ability to vote posts means it now CAN be democratically voted for! I vote that we all vote if we want to vote for this rule change to be voted into the official rules.
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Posts, yes, are democratic. Rule changes to the REG, however, aren't.
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I vote ban it ;D
seconded
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Actually, this brings up an interesting questions. Are cards with "definitions" on them considered to have an SA? They cannot be negated, since they only define the *s, but if they aren't SAs can you then use 3 per 50? I'm sure the answer is (and should be) no, but these fall in the same gray area as the Lost Souls.
Cards like:
Silly Women (Wo)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Character's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of all Evil Characters in play. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: Generic NT Female Human • Verse: II Timothy 3:6-7 • Availability: Women booster packs (Uncommon)
Answered Prayer (Wa)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Selected Hero (until discarded) gains 7 ability points to be distributed as holder chooses. Distribution must be announced when played. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: None • Verse: I Kings 8:28 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Uncommon)
This allows for another alternative: Having the rules state that you can have only 1 per 50 of any cards with an SA or definition on it. This may mean making "definition" something other than SA or identifier, but it would keep from having to make exceptions every time a new "definition" card (if any) was made.
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Why did they go with idenifier? Why not just CBN? I just don't understand why they called it an identifier.
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Don't forget this one:
Angel with the Secret Name
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of Silver Brigade heroes in play. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: OT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Judges 13:18 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Common)
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Don't forget this one:
Angel with the Secret Name
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of Silver Brigade heroes in play. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: OT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Judges 13:18 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Common)
Because THAT one is a staple in every deck ;) Actually that one makes much more sense than the 2/3 liner
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Don't forget this one:
Angel with the Secret Name
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: * / * • Class: None • Special Ability: Hero's abilities (*/*) are equal to the number of Silver Brigade heroes in play. • Errata: (Treat special ability as an identifier.) • Identifiers: OT Male Angel, Prophet • Verse: Judges 13:18 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Common)
Because THAT one is a staple in every deck ;) Actually that one makes much more sense than the 2/3 liner
Don't you be hatin' on my I Am Creator - AwtSN combo for a 1/1 (hopefully) first-turn RA....
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I prefer a IaCreator - Job on turn 1. :P
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Secondly, you can only have three of a card with no SA in a standard T1 deck.
Just pointing out that this ONLY applies to single-color Characters and Enhancements.
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Why couldn't you have been here earlier?
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It's been a busy week. Sorry ;)
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Secondly, you can only have three of a card with no SA in a standard T1 deck.
Just pointing out that this ONLY applies to single-color Characters and Enhancements.
But since the SA is TREATED as an identifier, then the 2/3-Liners should be treated as SA'less Souls.
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LS =/= Characters or Enhancements.
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I think the easiest fix would be to change the rules to say no special abilities or identifiers
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Testament is an identifier, though, according to the REG lists.
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LS =/= Characters or Enhancements.
If they're generic Souls, you can have 7 of them in your deck. Which would destroy Redemption.
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Although the Lost Souls cards is a Lost soul that cannot be negated, but it still has the special ability of rescue twice by the same player to just rescue twice. Therefore it cannot have more than one is a regular size type I deck. The Lost Souls cards consider unique in this case. Thank you.
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Thanks for reading the thread, Michael.
Now we need to find a tournament host that is awesome enough to play by the rules and abuse this. QUICK, delete this thread and maybe the elders that posted here will forget about it!
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Thanks for reading the thread, Michael.
Now we need to find a tournament host that is awesome enough to play by the rules and abuse this. QUICK, delete this thread and maybe the elders that posted here will forget about it!
Men In Black memory flasher, FTW.
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Tournament Hosts > Actual Rules.
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Tournament Hosts > Actual Rules.
You know it ;)
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I know a Host that would really into it, and his name is Bryon, sound familiar????
ML.
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I know a Host that would really into it, and his name is Bryon, sound familiar????
ML.
Bryon? Who's Bryon? *end sarcasm*
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hahaha.
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Knowing an elder doesn't make you an elder, though - even if you help playtest or make cards.
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Yeah, you have to have gray hair and a beard too.
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Yeah, you have to have gray hair and a beard too.
Then that will have to wait 60 more years. Plus I have never call myself an Elder, I only help interpret ruling that is all.
ML.
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Yeah, you have to have gray hair and a beard too.
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There. Better?
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Yeah, you have to have gray hair and a beard too.
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There. Better?
Very Yes :D
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Pants of Wyn.
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Yeah, you have to have gray hair and a beard too.
I have a beard, but no gray hair.... Do dyes count?
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I can't grow a beard. Does that disqualify me?
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I can't grow a beard. Does that disqualify me?
No. You either have to have a beard yourself, be capable of growing a beard, or have one on your avatar. The third option is what makes me eligible. So you can be elder-material too but just changing your avatar!
Of course, you also have to be appointed by Rob. But getting some kind of beard is a good start.
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This work?
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I used to have a gray beard, but my wife made me shave it off because she didn't want to be married to a man that looked that old. My daughter still tells me if I grow it back it will come in brown again, but after a week of not shaving at World Changers last summer it is painfully obvious that I am now permanently a graybeard (unless I try some Just For Men).
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lol nah your fine just the way you are lol
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This work?
Like a charm. Now you just have to gain years of experience of playing the game and show an aptitude for giving correct rulings.
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Yes! Almost there! At my current pace, I'll be an elder by the time I'm 60
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This work?
Like a charm. Now you just have to gain years of experience of playing the game and show an aptitude for giving correct rulings.
Is 3 for 152,347 a good aptitude???
And since I have a beard, all I need is the aptitude, right?