Author Topic: 2 Questions while battling: Brigades in play & Initiative (Read 10187 times)

soul seeker · « **on:** October 12, 2008, 09:50:57 PM »

Sorry in advance for not posting abilities on cards, but the experts know the cards in question.

1. If the Amelikites slave has become a lost soul in my opponent's territory, and I have the anti-ignore lost soul in my territory. Who does the dual color slave count against? For example: Rebekah comes at me with Reuben's Torn Clothes and I only have PG in territory: can she ignore me?
I think it is: no she can't. If she can, then explain to me (not Gabe, sorry

) how the Slave's dual color counts against me when it is in the opponent's territory as a lost soul?

2. "Simple" question: is initiative check made after every enhancement played without the play next ability?
Situation: I go in with the Generous Widow. I'm blocked by Unclean Spirit (Brown) and my Tartan (PG). I play Battle Prayer....get Fishers of Men and play it to convert The Tartan. I don't want to acknowledge initiative so I can play AoTL. However, I'm told that interrupts don't have to check for initiative and can be just played as a counter action. So, again, the question is begged: is or is not an initiative check made after every enhancement?

The Schaef · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2008, 09:53:10 PM »

Captured characters no longer have brigades for the purposes of counting such things.

Initiative checks are made after every (instant) ability completes. So:
- check after Battle Prayer
- check after Fishers of Men
You can play AotL before or after either of those cards. An AotL'd Unclean Spirit can no longer interrupt. The Tartan still can, to stop its own removal.

soul seeker · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2008, 09:55:36 PM »

hah, I knew it!!!

But what about the initiative check?

*edit* you hadn't typed the initiative part yet.

The Schaef · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2008, 09:55:53 PM »

read above

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2008, 10:02:40 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 12, 2008, 09:53:10 PM

Captured characters no longer have brigades for the purposes of counting such things.

That's good; otherwise, capture could be rather risky.

Gabe · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2008, 11:08:02 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 12, 2008, 09:53:10 PM

Captured characters no longer have brigades for the purposes of counting such things.

A Curse or Covenant being used as an Artifact still has a brigade that counts, even though Artifacts don't have brigades. Why would a captured character be treated differently? It still has a brigade. So why doesn't the brigade count?

Quote from: The Schaef on October 12, 2008, 09:53:10 PM

Initiative checks are made after every (instant) ability completes. So:
- check after Battle Prayer
- check after Fishers of Men
You can play AotL before or after either of those cards. An AotL'd Unclean Spirit can no longer interrupt. The Tartan still can, to stop its own removal.

You can't play dominants while another card is resolving. If Fishers of Men is going to cause the blocker to be in a losing position, then the blocker has initiative to interrupt/negate. How exactly do you insert AotL in there?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2008, 11:51:01 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2008, 11:08:02 PM

A Curse or Covenant being used as an Artifact still has a brigade that counts, even though Artifacts don't have brigades. Why would a captured character be treated differently? It still has a brigade. So why doesn't the brigade count?

I agree that this seems inconsistent. And I think that the reasoning behind the rule was based more on the fact that there were already cards printed that referred to the brigades of curses, than it was to fit into and overall consistent game model. However, it is a clearly established rule.

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2008, 11:08:02 PM

You can't play dominants while another card is resolving. If Fishers of Men is going to cause the blocker to be in a losing position, then the blocker has initiative to interrupt/negate. How exactly do you insert AotL in there?

The way I think of it is that when you play an enhancement that has numbers alone and it makes you higher than the other character, then they are losing by the numbers. You can either play a dominant or recognize their initiative to do something about it. Similarly, if you play an enhancement that has a special ability to remove the other character, then they are losing by removal. You can either play a dominant or recognize their initiative to do something about it. The only difference is that their options of what they could do about it (if given initiative) are limited to negates and interrupts.

The Schaef · « **Reply #7 on:** October 13, 2008, 12:00:44 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 12, 2008, 11:08:02 PM

A Curse or Covenant being used as an Artifact still has a brigade that counts, even though Artifacts don't have brigades. Why would a captured character be treated differently? It still has a brigade. So why doesn't the brigade count?

A Curse played as an Artifact is still a Curse.
A captured Hero is not still a Hero.

Quote from: The Schaef on October 12, 2008, 09:53:10 PM

You can't play dominants while another card is resolving. If Fishers of Men is going to cause the blocker to be in a losing position, then the blocker has initiative to interrupt/negate. How exactly do you insert AotL in there?

You must have initiative to negate a card that removes a character from battle (e.g., discard, conversion, capture). For example, Helez is blocked by Saph banded to Goliath. If Saph is converted and Goliath is discarded by Angel of the Lord, the conversion cannot be negated because Goliath was still defeating Helez by the numbers after Saph was converted. However, if Helez is blocked by Lot’s Wife banded to Possessing Demon, Lot’s Wife is converted, and Possessing Demon is discarded by Angel of the Lord, a negate card can be played on Lot’s Wife to negate her conversion because initiative transferred when Lot’s Wife was converted.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #8 on:** October 13, 2008, 08:51:25 AM »

So, you can play AotL any time; it just doesn't stop your opponent from negating the last enhancement played?

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:38:34 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 13, 2008, 12:00:44 AM

You must have initiative to negate a card that removes a character from battle (e.g., discard, conversion, capture). For example, Helez is blocked by Saph banded to Goliath. If Saph is converted and Goliath is discarded by Angel of the Lord, the conversion cannot be negated because Goliath was still defeating Helez by the numbers after Saph was converted. However, if Helez is blocked by Lot’s Wife banded to Possessing Demon, Lot’s Wife is converted, and Possessing Demon is discarded by Angel of the Lord, a negate card can be played on Lot’s Wife to negate her conversion because initiative transferred when Lot’s Wife was converted.

I wonder if that's an out of date REG entry from before Priests was released? It doesn't explain why or how a dominant can be played while another ability is resolving. I assume that most of us know that you haven't been able to do that since the rule changes that came out with Priests.

If you play High Priests Plot against me, I can't play SoG/NJ from my hand before you get to take it with HPP. So why can Angel of the Lord be inserted before a conversion card completes?

TimMierz · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:44:05 AM »

Not to intrude on this thread, Gabe, I'm not sure I totally understand. Are you saying the conversion card isn't complete until there's been an opportunity to negate?

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:59:42 AM »

I don't think negating works quite that way. $:-\$

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2008, 10:04:18 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 13, 2008, 09:38:34 AM

If you play High Priests Plot against me, I can't play SoG/NJ from my hand before you get to take it with HPP. So why can Angel of the Lord be inserted before a conversion card completes?

It's not. So there's no issue here.

Gabe · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2008, 11:43:57 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on October 13, 2008, 09:44:05 AM

Not to intrude on this thread, Gabe, I'm not sure I totally understand. Are you saying the conversion card isn't complete until there's been an opportunity to negate?

Correct. If the conversion (or any other removal) card was complete there would not be a character left to play the interrupt on, would there? I don't recall exactly where I drew this conclusion but I assume it was from something like this.

Quote from: REG

In most cases, an interrupt special ability must be played on a character being removed from battle, leaving no character in battle. Play the interrupt card on the character being removed from battle prior to physically removing the character. If an interrupt card cannot be played, the cards targeted for removal from battle are then physically removed.

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** October 13, 2008, 11:45:39 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 13, 2008, 10:04:18 AM

It's not. So there's no issue here.

Thanks, Schaef. That doesn't help me understand this any better but it definitely proves your intellectual superiority.

The Schaef · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2008, 12:22:03 PM »

The sarcasm is not necessary. Conversion is an instant ability. Nothing is happening "while it is resolving".

The "last chance" opportunity to interrupt your own removal from battle has been a standing rule for years. It has long been an exception to the "character is no longer in battle" concept. You quoted the exact rule from the REG that says this.

If converting the character passes initiative, the opponent has the opportunity to play an interrupt. Playing an AotL on the other Evil Character does not affect that.

Either way, I am certain you agree that interrupts do NOT bypass the normal rules of initiative, as Jonathan was asking in his OP?

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2008, 12:40:13 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on October 13, 2008, 12:22:03 PM

Either way, I am certain you agree that interrupts do NOT bypass the normal rules of initiative, as Jonathan was asking in his OP?

Yes. I was the other player in that game. Jonathan's question came from a misunderstanding why we played the battle the way we did. Nobody said interrupts bypass the normal rules of initiative but somehow he must have gotten that impression since he asked the question.

I still don't understand how any "removal" enhancement can be completed enough to allow a dominant to be inserted but not completed enough to have removed my character from battle. Either it's completed and my character has been removed or it's not completed and my character remains until I've passed intiative to interrupt/negate. What am I missing?

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2008, 12:49:05 PM »

Because you are allowed to interrupt your character's removal from battle. As I said, that is an exception to the normal flow of abilities completing beyond the point of no return. It does not mean that the Enhancement is still in the process of resolving.

Dominants, on the other hand, take place outside the normal flow of initiative. Either of you could have played any Dominant after that card, or any other whose non-ongoing ability had completed. That does not change the fact that initiative was passed based on the result of the last Enhancement, and whatever interrupt he was playing targets the last Enhancement played. If it had been a card played within the flow of initiative, such as another Enhancement, then that certainly would be too late.

soul seeker · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2008, 12:49:42 PM »

To help clarify what happened and my position (hopefully to bring clarity and not muddy things up more). I converted the Tartan leaving only Unclean Spirit and Gabe's Initiative, but I didn't recognize that initiative until I played Angel of the Lord on Unclean Spirit. Then I "recognized" Gabe's initiative.

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2008, 01:13:10 PM »

I'm not sure what difference "recognizing" it makes. You passed initiative to him by playing the conversion. The check between cards also serves as a time frame for players to play Dominants. He gained initiative from the initial conversion, regardless of when you verbally "granted" the ability to play his Enhancement.

What really needs to be avoided with these checks is blocking and immediately playing an Enhancement with no chance for a response with what used to be Dominants, but now could be anything: Dominants, Arts, Forts, Sites, Lost Souls... all kinds of cards now have triggers that players can take advantage of. Or playing a bunch of Enhancements in a row without providing an opportunity for a response, even if the player retains initiative.

Oh, here's another one, dropping CM or AotL before a player has opted - or not - to band in another character. These are the kind of things the waiting and the checking is designed to avoid.

soul seeker · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2008, 02:16:28 PM »

I see "recognizing" and "checking" as the same thing. Time to play my dominant. Especially when I'm not very fast at clicking cards on the computer.

Quote from: The Schaef on October 13, 2008, 01:13:10 PM

You passed initiative to him by playing the conversion. The check between cards also serves as a time frame for players to play Dominants. He gained initiative from the initial conversion, regardless of when you verbally "granted" the ability to play his Enhancement.

That is what created the misunderstanding, I wanted to play AoTL during this check, and Gabe (to my understanding) didn't think I could play a dom during this check.
That misunderstanding led to my question.

SirNobody · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2008, 04:38:26 PM »

Hey,

As far as how the battle plays out, the conversion ability completes, initiative is determined. After initiative is determined there is an opportunity to play Angel of the Lord before that initiative can be used.

As far as how you can play a negate if your character has already been removed from battle...I wonder if Art's ghost character explanation is still out there somewhere

Here is how I explain it. An enhancement is usually playable in battle if there is a character in battle whose brigade color matches the enhancement's brigade color when the enhancement is played. If an enhancement has an interrupt effect (has an interrupt or negate ability), the enhancement is playable in battle if there is a character in battle whose brigade color matches the enhancement's brigade color when the ability on the enhancement completes.

So you play net and capture my hero. I don't have a hero in battle, but I can still play Council of Abigail to negate Net because Council of Abigail doesn't have to have a hero in battle to be played on when it is played.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2008, 02:44:41 PM »

Ok if I block with POGreece to anti the 4th, he d/cs a diff hero for the ability then plays glit sword vs my Anti the 4th then aotls my POgreece, I can inturupt his sword with namaans horses can I not?

soul seeker · « **Reply #23 on:** October 30, 2008, 03:31:20 PM »

If I am reading this correctly, then yes you can play Namaan's horses to interrupt glittering sword because it's your init by removal. If I'm reading it right.

Gabe · « **Reply #24 on:** October 30, 2008, 03:36:13 PM »

Quote from: soul seeker on October 30, 2008, 03:31:20 PM

If I am reading this correctly, then yes you can play Namaan's horses to interrupt glittering sword because it's your init by removal. If I'm reading it right.

Are you serious? If that's true then I just cheated RR in our game (sorry, RR).

How is that different than the situation in our game Soul Seeker?

How come I can't seem to get this right?

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Author Topic: 2 Questions while battling: Brigades in play & Initiative (Read 10187 times)

The Schaef

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The Schaef

The Schaef