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Author Topic: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit  (Read 5462 times)

Offline RTSmaniac

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2013, 01:58:31 PM »
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or...we can say ok as of today all rulings will be decided based on this:

Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts game rules, the card takes precedence. The card
overrides only the rule that applies to that specific situation. The only exception is that a player can
concede the game at any time.

When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t
happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.
Example: If one effect reads “You may draw a card” and another reads
“You can’t have more than 16 cards at any given time,” the effect that precludes you from adding an additional card to hand wins.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 05:14:26 PM »
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Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 19, 2013, 01:58:31 PM
When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.
This would make SAs like David (red or green) useless.  David's SA says that he can use GEs of different brigades, but there is a game rule that says that you can NOT play enhs of different brigades on characters, therefore David's SA would never work.

That's just one off the top of my head, but I suspect there would be many more problems that would come up with a rule like above.
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 06:15:08 PM »
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Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 19, 2013, 05:14:26 PM
Quote from: RTSmaniac on April 19, 2013, 01:58:31 PM
When a rule or effect allows or directs something to happen, and another effect states that it can’t happen, the “can’t” effect takes precedence.
This would make SAs like David (red or green) useless.  David's SA says that he can use GEs of different brigades, but there is a game rule that says that you can NOT play enhs of different brigades on characters, therefore David's SA would never work.

Arguably the rule is that you can play enhancements of the same brigade and there is no rule allowing the playing of off colored enhancements so you can't. Adding the ability to play enhancements of different brigades expands the ability to play enhancements.

The thing is we often think of the rules in regards to what we already know such as we know we can play enhancements, so the rule looks like it disallows playing of enhancements of different brigades, however if we took everything in a vacuum and only added the rules that allowed you to do things there isn't a contradiction between these statements since rules don't cover the ability to play enhancements of a different brigade (at least not from a behind the scenes level, obviously the rules work out such that you can't play enhancement of a different brigade ordinarily) and adding the ability simply expands the rules we already have.

However this is just speculation by a rules lawyer who has dabbled in computer programming, math and physics, so I might just be crazy.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 06:22:09 PM »
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Quote from: ChristianSoldier on April 19, 2013, 06:15:08 PM
Arguably the rule is that you can play enhancements of the same brigade and there is no rule allowing the playing of off colored enhancements so you can't.
This is a good argument, and brings up another point.  If we made a new rule such as the one proposed above, we would have to carefully go through all of the game rules, SAs, and identifiers to see exactly which ones are written in the positive form (ie. do X) and which ones are in the negative form (ie. do NOT do Y).  Some "soft" game rules might need to be rewritten in the positive, and some "hard" game rules might need to be rewritten in the negative.

As I said before, this is a huge project.
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 06:36:39 PM »
+1
Huge project?  Sure. 

Great benefit to the game?  Yes. 

Likelihood of community participation to make it happen?  High (imo, anyway).


I for one would be more than happy to help, and after college is done on May 3rd I have tons of free time.  I'm sure there are others in the community who likewise have spare time they would be willing to donate to this beneficial cause.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 08:00:37 PM »
+2
Quote from: Mageduckey on April 19, 2013, 06:36:39 PM
Likelihood of community participation to make it happen?  High (imo, anyway).

This is basically what I think as well. We have enough brilliant minds on this Message Board to make something that will work. The Playtesters and Elders have a backup of issues, which I can appreciate, but the rest of us can hash out the details of a heirarchy that may work. RTSManiac put in the ante, so now lets mold a potential basis for overarching rules.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 08:59:48 PM »
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Hey,

There are two types of game rules.  There are game rules that define the generally flow and structure of the game and there are game rules that define how special abilities work.  Generally speaking, special abilities take precedence over game rules that define flow and structure while game rules that define special abilities take precedence over special abilities.

While the playtesters appreciate the willingness of the playerbase to contribute to the work, most of the time it turns out that more minds just makes things harder because it's a greater number of opinions that have to be brought into agreement (which usually is what we're already struggling with).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2013, 09:00:25 AM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 19, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
The Playtesters and Elders have a backup of issues, which I can appreciate, but the rest of us can hash out the details of a heirarchy that may work. RTSManiac put in the ante, so now lets mold a potential basis for overarching rules.
I'd be interested to see what you guys can come up with.  It does seem to be past experience that the projects that end up happening are individual projects (Redemption Connect, Redemption Live, SOT -later turned into ROOT-) or projects that have 1 specific person who is primarily responsible for pushing a project to completion (Daniel's new Revelation Fan Set, Redemption HoF).  Even cool projects that are just general community ones without someone specific pushing them (The Aftermath, Redemption Wiki -both times-) tend to end up fizzling out.  I hope this actually works out because I'd like to see something happen on this issue.  I'm just warning everyone that the odds are stacked against it.
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2013, 09:36:46 AM »
+1
Quote from: SirNobody on April 19, 2013, 08:59:48 PM
While the playtesters appreciate the willingness of the playerbase to contribute to the work, most of the time it turns out that more minds just makes things harder because it's a greater number of opinions that have to be brought into agreement (which usually is what we're already struggling with).

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 20, 2013, 09:00:25 AM
I'm just warning everyone that the odds are stacked against it.

You guys are great motivators.  :thumbup:
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2013, 12:23:38 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 20, 2013, 09:36:46 AM
You guys are great motivators.  :thumbup:
Sarcasm noted.

I'm actually just wanting people to count the cost before they start building this tower.  The other reason I keep bringing up stuff like the Aftermath is because I actually really liked that idea and I'm hopeful that someday someone will catch on to that idea and finish it up.
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Offline Mageduckey

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2013, 01:14:25 PM »
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I may not have been "nominated" to help head this, but I'm gonna have a lot of free time over the summer, and I doubt too many extra people will be open for 12+ RTS games a day, so I plan on being dedicated to this task.  I may not be the leader, but I plan on being a "specific person...pushing [this] project to completion."
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2013, 07:14:38 PM »
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Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 20, 2013, 09:00:25 AM
Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 19, 2013, 08:00:37 PM
The Playtesters and Elders have a backup of issues, which I can appreciate, but the rest of us can hash out the details of a heirarchy that may work. RTSManiac put in the ante, so now lets mold a potential basis for overarching rules.
I'd be interested to see what you guys can come up with.  It does seem to be past experience that the projects that end up happening are individual projects (Redemption Connect, Redemption Live, SOT -later turned into ROOT-) or projects that have 1 specific person who is primarily responsible for pushing a project to completion (Daniel's new Revelation Fan Set, Redemption HoF).  Even cool projects that are just general community ones without someone specific pushing them (The Aftermath, Redemption Wiki -both times-) tend to end up fizzling out.  I hope this actually works out because I'd like to see something happen on this issue.  I'm just warning everyone that the odds are stacked against it.

I think you forgot the Redemption BCS standings.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Ahimelek vs. Hand Limit
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2013, 10:17:32 AM »
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Quote from: Alex_Olijar on April 20, 2013, 07:14:38 PM
I think you forgot the Redemption BCS standings.
Yeah, my list wasn't exhaustive.  I also didn't include the Redemption Hall of Fame.  Note to self, I need to make a new thread for some nominations in the next week or so :)
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