Cactus Game Design Message Boards

1: enhancements that set-aside characters, do they always follow the characters? including things like moses kills egyptian and He is Risin?

2: Can i move magic charms from one magician to another before battle?

3: the "once per turn" on the errata for holy grail, does that mean only on your turn or could you convert once per each of your opponents turns as well?

1. Yes. Any card that sets other cards aside (unless it discards itself to do so like Samaritan Water Jar, or is the Shame LS) will set itself aside with those cards.

2. I vaguely remember someone once ruling that once you activate it it's stuck, but I see nothing in the rules about that. If it's your Preparation Phase and you did not just activate it this turn, you should be able to "deactivate/reactivate" it on a different magician.

3. "Once per turn" just restricts you from using both conversions in one round. I believe you can use your one convert anytime (even during an opponent's turn). A popular strategy with Holy Grail that demonstrates this is to begin a battle with Woman at the Well and then immediately convert the EC you brought out with her to prevent the opponent from blocking with it.

1: it makes a difference if it follows or not, cause what if I want to recur He is Risin the next turn after I use it?  i know its the practice that it follows, but does it officially follow?

it would make sense for it not to follow now, saying there are lots of cards that set-aside cards but dont follow, like shame LS, SWJ, Haman and the other persian that set-asides characters.  rather than there being the rule set-asides follow and there be a bunch of exceptions, do we really need set-asides to follow?

1. It has always been the rule that enhancements follow characters to set-aside, and I was not made aware of any official change to that rule. I'm not sure why it's not in the REG, but it should be in the rulebook. In any case, I would have to rule that it is the official rule until otherwise noted.

There is probably no reason it needs to follow except for keeping track of why the character is set aside, but I personally like the rule because it does keep arguably one of the best and most easily recurrable GEs out there (HiR) from being recurred sooner.

2. Yes, you can change the Magician with MC on him/her during your prep phase.

3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.

3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.

Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.

Quote from: Gabe on April 15, 2013, 11:39:39 AM

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 15, 2013, 10:33:37 AM

3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.

Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.

So player 1 cannot activate it, convert an EC, end their turn and have player 2 draw, then convert a second EC?

Correct

Quote from: Professoralstad on April 15, 2013, 10:33:37 AM

3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.

Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.

Gabe, I would disagree on the basis that "turn" when used on artifacts has always meant each player-turn, and "round" is the term to be used if it referred to the completion of a player-turn for each player in the game.  For example, Joseph's Silver Cup says "All opponents’ currently activated Artifacts must remain activated for one round. No new artifacts may be activated. May be used twice."  That card lasts a full round, because it says so.  There are many cards that are not artifacts that use "turn" to refer to the player-turns of the holder, but it is clearer on those cards as well.

I cannot find any other threads that discuss this, but I would disagree on the basis of the term used.

This 2010 thread lays out the premise Gabe described in this thread. Tim (and other players) agreed with Gabe's interpretation. The only threads I found since then seemed to suggest people forgot about the 2010 thread or didn't know about it and Jordan ruled more than once that Grail can be used on opponents' turns.

FWIW, I even told a player this past Sat at IA states that he could use Grail on my turn. So i have had it wrong all along. If we used the term "turn" literally there would be a number of other cards that don't work as they are currently played.

Thanks for enlightening us Gabe.

Kirk

And how is a round determined, other than all players taking a turn (namely, where it starts/ends)?  I could claim that the round started on the opponent's turn, since he/she started the game, convert on my turn (the "end" of the round), and then convert on their turn (the "start" of the new round).

I must have either missed/forgotten the discussion that "per turn" always means "per round". My understanding is and always has been that "per turn" = "per round" only in cases where upkeep counters are involved.

I have always assumed you could use Holy Grail twice in the same round, once on your turn and once on an opponent's turn. But I am glad to know that my ruling that you can use it on an opponent's turn is correct.

Round is defined in the REG.

I know, but the REG doesn't say when the round starts/ends.

...then again, I'm being dumb - when the round starts/stops is based on when the card is used.

and why then characters and the LS and SWJ don't follow then? 

The LS doesn't because then people would abuse it for soul drought. SWJ doesn't, I assume, because it discards itself to actually perform the set aside. I'm sure characters have a similar reason, though I don't know it offhand.