Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on April 15, 2013, 07:49:26 AM
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1: enhancements that set-aside characters, do they always follow the characters? including things like moses kills egyptian and He is Risin?
2: Can i move magic charms from one magician to another before battle?
3: the "once per turn" on the errata for holy grail, does that mean only on your turn or could you convert once per each of your opponents turns as well?
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1. I have always wondered this. I don't think they do, but that could just be me.
2. If it's your activation phase, I bet you could move it.
3. Once again, only in your activation phase.
(Keep in mind I'm no Elder, so don't believe everything I say.)
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1. Yes. Any card that sets other cards aside (unless it discards itself to do so like Samaritan Water Jar, or is the Shame LS) will set itself aside with those cards.
2. I vaguely remember someone once ruling that once you activate it it's stuck, but I see nothing in the rules about that. If it's your Preparation Phase and you did not just activate it this turn, you should be able to "deactivate/reactivate" it on a different magician.
3. "Once per turn" just restricts you from using both conversions in one round. I believe you can use your one convert anytime (even during an opponent's turn). A popular strategy with Holy Grail that demonstrates this is to begin a battle with Woman at the Well and then immediately convert the EC you brought out with her to prevent the opponent from blocking with it.
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1: There is nothing in the REG in the Set-Aside area saying the card with the set-aside ability follows the card(s) targeted by said ability, though this is the general practice.
2: If it is in your preparation phase, yes, you can deactivate Magic Charms (which returns to the artifact pile while deactivated) and reactivate it on a different magician.
3: "Once per turn" means once per turn. The only stipulation is that it cannot convert an EC in battle - it has to target an EC in a territory.
*Edit* Ninja'd.
However, I'm curious as to why the set-aside card follows the target(s) of the set-aside; the Set-Aside area of the REG says nothing about it.
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1: it makes a difference if it follows or not, cause what if I want to recur He is Risin the next turn after I use it? i know its the practice that it follows, but does it officially follow?
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It at least used to be the rule that set-asides follow the character. I'm surprised it's not in the current REG, but it's true, I don't see anything in there about it.
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it would make sense for it not to follow now, saying there are lots of cards that set-aside cards but dont follow, like shame LS, SWJ, Haman and the other persian that set-asides characters. rather than there being the rule set-asides follow and there be a bunch of exceptions, do we really need set-asides to follow?
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I think your desire (to recur HiR the following turn) is part of the reason why they follow. It balances them somewhat.
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1. It has always been the rule that enhancements follow characters to set-aside, and I was not made aware of any official change to that rule. I'm not sure why it's not in the REG, but it should be in the rulebook. In any case, I would have to rule that it is the official rule until otherwise noted.
There is probably no reason it needs to follow except for keeping track of why the character is set aside, but I personally like the rule because it does keep arguably one of the best and most easily recurrable GEs out there (HiR) from being recurred sooner.
2. Yes, you can change the Magician with MC on him/her during your prep phase.
3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.
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Like I said, don't trust me. Though I was right once at least...
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3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.
Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.
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3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.
Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.
So player 1 cannot activate it, convert an EC, end their turn and have player 2 draw, then convert a second EC?
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3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.
Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.
So player 1 cannot activate it, convert an EC, end their turn and have player 2 draw, then convert a second EC?
Correct
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Well then. Several people don't play it that way (I've been subject to many double converts like that). Good to know :)
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3. You can use Holy Grail once on any turn it is active, including your opponent's turn. You just can't use it twice on the same turn.
Just to clarify, because the way we use "turn" can be confusing, but turn in this case means round. You can use Holy Grail once per round that it's active.
Gabe, I would disagree on the basis that "turn" when used on artifacts has always meant each player-turn, and "round" is the term to be used if it referred to the completion of a player-turn for each player in the game. For example, Joseph's Silver Cup says "All opponents’ currently activated Artifacts must remain activated for one round. No new artifacts may be activated. May be used twice." That card lasts a full round, because it says so. There are many cards that are not artifacts that use "turn" to refer to the player-turns of the holder, but it is clearer on those cards as well.
I cannot find any other threads that discuss this, but I would disagree on the basis of the term used.
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I would disagree...
No surprise there. You usually do. ::)
As I mentioned above, the way "turn" and "round" are used is rather confusing. The elders discussed this when working on the new "play as" list. They came to the conclusion that the following statement is true.
"per turn" or "for X turns" has always been shorthand for "for each of your turns" or "for X of your turns".
Holy Grail - Once per turn holder may convert a human evil character in a territory to a hero in brigade of holder's choice. Holder is limited to two such conversions per game.
So Holy Grail may be used once for each of your turns which is another way of saying once per round.
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This 2010 thread (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/timing-of-chozarin/msg371703/#msg371703) lays out the premise Gabe described in this thread. Tim (and other players) agreed with Gabe's interpretation. The only threads I found since then seemed to suggest people forgot about the 2010 thread or didn't know about it and Jordan ruled more than once that Grail can be used on opponents' turns.
FWIW, I even told a player this past Sat at IA states that he could use Grail on my turn. So i have had it wrong all along. If we used the term "turn" literally there would be a number of other cards that don't work as they are currently played.
Thanks for enlightening us Gabe.
Kirk
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FWIW, I even told a player this past Sat at IA states that he could use Grail on my turn. So i have had it wrong all along.
Apparently it's still confusing because you are correct, Kirk, Holy Grail may be used on your opponent's turn, it doesn't have to be used on your turn only. It would be much clearer if it said "Once per round,..." because that is what is meant.
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And how is a round determined, other than all players taking a turn (namely, where it starts/ends)? I could claim that the round started on the opponent's turn, since he/she started the game, convert on my turn (the "end" of the round), and then convert on their turn (the "start" of the new round).
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Round is defined in the REG.
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I must have either missed/forgotten the discussion that "per turn" always means "per round". My understanding is and always has been that "per turn" = "per round" only in cases where upkeep counters are involved.
I have always assumed you could use Holy Grail twice in the same round, once on your turn and once on an opponent's turn. But I am glad to know that my ruling that you can use it on an opponent's turn is correct.
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could we have an elder confirm if it is in fact a rule that set-asides follow, and why then characters and the LS and SWJ don't follow then?
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Round is defined in the REG.
I know, but the REG doesn't say when the round starts/ends.
...then again, I'm being dumb - when the round starts/stops is based on when the card is used.
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Ah thanks for pointing that out Gabe.
could we have an elder confirm if it is in fact a rule that set-asides follow, and why then characters and the LS and SWJ don't follow then?
Jordan did and he is an elder.
Kirk
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and why then characters and the LS and SWJ don't follow then?
The LS doesn't because then people would abuse it for soul drought. SWJ doesn't, I assume, because it discards itself to actually perform the set aside. I'm sure characters have a similar reason, though I don't know it offhand.
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I'm going to have to join in the confusion, since there is no way that I would have ever ruled "turn" as "round." We will need to errata Holy Grail to clarify this, and the definition of "turn" will have to be duly notated.
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Hopefully I'll clear up the confusion as opposed to muddying the waters.
Jordan's understanding was also mine - set aside enhancements go to the set aside area until the set aside character(s) are returned, then the enhancement is discarded. That used to be the rule and it's still the way I play still it.
I was also a little confused how that was missing from the REG entry for Set Aside. I looked back and some discussions and found that the rule was removed/changed with the release of the online REG 2.0 a couple years ago. It was removed based on the fact that so many other card types now set other cards aside and we don't want Haman, the Shame Lost Soul, etc going to the set aside area with the cards they target.
So, the current rule is that set aside enhancements (or cards of any type) do not follow the card(s) they set aside to the set aside area. If any elders wish to change that I support reviving the private discussion found here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/reg-discussion/set-aside-placed-on-targets/).
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I also remember this rule and have played many a game with the provisions x5 in type 2. It has always been enhancements that get set aside with the character. I was always under the impression that if the enhancment was some how removed from the character while it was set aside that the character would not recieve the gained ability?
Am I mistaken on this?
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I would disagree...
No surprise there. You usually do. ::)
Not always :P And I just want to point to the REP and Elder posts in this thread that also show confusion ;) I don't think this situation (turn vs round on cards) was ever hammered out to a final solution that was communicated to all players (though Prof's post shows there was probably still some confusion on that side, since this is an admittedly confusing topic).
I understand the way you are describing it, I do, but I am very concerned about cards that use turn to mean literal turns, or have been ruled as such, and how this ruling may not be applied universally. For example, Besieging the City references "turn" but it specifically says "next turn" and not "their next turn" or "this round" or anything similar. I have always seen it ruled that it only applies to the next turn to take place, regardless of whose turn it is, and that comes into play in multiplayer.
Can we get "turn" and "round" defined, not in terms of what they are, but what they mean on cards in general, so we don't have sporadic and spread out rulings?
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So, the current rule is that set aside enhancements (or cards of any type) do not follow the card(s) they set aside to the set aside area. If any elders wish to change that I support reviving the private discussion found here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/reg-discussion/set-aside-placed-on-targets/).
Somehow I missed this part of your post last time around, can we have that added to the Rules Changes threads so that it doesn't get lost in these kinds of threads in the future? If that will indeed be the new rule, especially with tournament season now, it would be helpful :)
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Even though people are just now becoming aware of it, this is not a new change. It was made way back when the web based REG 2.0 was released. That was at least 2, maybe 3 years ago.
I somewhat expect(ed) some of the other elders to want to change this back to the old way, but so far none have.
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Even though people are just now becoming aware of it, this is not a new change. It was made way back when the web based REG 2.0 was released. That was at least 2, maybe 3 years ago.
I understand that, but it is still being ruled the other way (on and off the boards), and I don't think most REPs noticed that something was missing in the REG 2.0. See this thread on a sample game that was played (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/strategies-and-combos/redemption-metagaming-giving-you-the-edge/msg505248/?topicseen#new), for instance.
Removing something from the REG does not seem to be enough to communicate to most of us that there was any change in the rules ;) I know that every tournament I have been to and every thread I've seen has ruled it the old way, which is why I asked for the addition to the Rules Change thread.
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Hopefully I'll clear up the confusion as opposed to muddying the waters.
Jordan's understanding was also mine - set aside enhancements go to the set aside area until the set aside character(s) are returned, then the enhancement is discarded. That used to be the rule and it's still the way I play still it.
I was also a little confused how that was missing from the REG entry for Set Aside. I looked back and some discussions and found that the rule was removed/changed with the release of the online REG 2.0 a couple years ago. It was removed based on the fact that so many other card types now set other cards aside and we don't want Haman, the Shame Lost Soul, etc going to the set aside area with the cards they target.
So, the current rule is that set aside enhancements (or cards of any type) do not follow the card(s) they set aside to the set aside area. If any elders wish to change that I support reviving the private discussion found here (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/reg-discussion/set-aside-placed-on-targets/).
I'm still setting the GE aside with them unless it's He Is Risen aside with them as a reminder unless my deck can take advantage of it. If someone rules lawyered me about this I'd quite frankly laugh.