Author Topic: 2 questions.... (Read 4850 times)

TheJaylor · « **on:** July 07, 2011, 06:05:25 PM »

1. When a friend and I were playing and I attacked him. He defended and played an enhancement to kill me. I, in turn, played an interrupt and discard to discard him. Would he then be able to play Grapes to discard his enhancement that he played even though the evil character has left battle?

2. If I attack with Abashai banded to Asahel to Caleb and they block with Goliath from hand all of they are giant-slayers or can't withdraw so none go back until he negates banding. Once Asahel and Caleb go back do I get to add another hero because it says "opponent may add a new hero" or what exactly is the order of things that happen there?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #1 on:** July 07, 2011, 06:50:08 PM »

1.) Nope. Grapes won't interrupt the discard.

2.) There are two ways I could see this playing out. One, presenting a new hero only happens if there aren't any left in battle. (25% chance of happening). Otherwise, there's nothing stopping you from adding a new hero. (75%)

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #2 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:09:36 PM »

1.) I'm fairly certain that you can use Grapes. ~85%.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #3 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:10:41 PM »

Kittens is correct on 1. For 2, you may bring in a new Hero to join Abishai.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:19:18 PM »

Are enhancements discarded when all characters leave the battle then? I thought they just hung around until resolution.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #5 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:23:27 PM »

Ive never heard of that and don't have a reason to believe that to be the case.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:32:36 PM »

Enhancements are put on a character. Thus, placed cards follow.

/Not an Elder...

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2011, 07:34:27 PM »

Enhancements aren't placed on a character. The rulebook explains discarding enhancements played during battle in the section about battle resolution, but that's obviously outdated. However, I haven't seen anything that suggests otherwise until today.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2011, 08:03:57 PM »

I agree with Rawrlolsauce! The discarding of enhancements from battle should happen during battle resolution. Enhancements are played on characters, but the REG/rulebook mention passing enhancements to a banded character if the played-on character is removed. The enhancements are not "attached" to the character, per se.

I have always ruled that if a lone character is removed from battle, but that player has Unknown Nation active, they can bring in the new EC and use the enhancements in battle to boost their numbers.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2011, 09:51:13 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 07, 2011, 07:10:41 PM

Kittens is correct on 1. For 2, you may bring in a new Hero to join Abishai.

And that wouldn't be considered "banding" according to Goliath then?

Gabe · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2011, 09:55:51 PM »

#1 - Enhancements do not remain in battle if there is not a character of matching brigade. They are discarded with the character if no other characters of matching brigade remain in battle.

For further clarification please check out the Use Other Enhancements page in the REG.

Quote from: REG

Although the restrictions of matching brigade is relaxed for these card types, each enhancement card must still be activated on a specific character. That character retains the enhancements while the character is in battle. If a character is removed or withdraws before the end of the battle, the enhancements are discarded unless there is another character currently in the battle or immediately replaced in battle that can use them. The remaining cards unused are then discarded.

#2 - I'd like to point out that Caleb is NOT a giant slayer. Once the banding is negated Abashai remains in battle and you're allowed to add another character to the battle per Goliath's ability. Yes it's considered banding but Goliath is CBN so he doesn't negate himself.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2011, 10:15:29 PM »

Quote from: REG

Although the restrictions of matching brigade is relaxed for these card types, each enhancement card must still be activated on a specific character. That character retains the enhancements while the character is in battle. If a character is removed or withdraws before the end of the battle, the enhancements are discarded unless there is another character currently in the battle or immediately replaced in battle that can use them. The remaining cards unused are then discarded.

That quote allows the opportunity to replace the character (i.e. Unknown Nation). If there is opportunity to replace the character, then how can there not be an opportunity to play a dominant? We have always allowed the playing of dominants during Battle Resolution.

Redemption® Rulebook > Diagram of a Turn > Battle Resolution > Hero Wins

Your Hero wins if one of these conditions is met:

• The Hero’s strength is greater than or equal to the Evil Character’s toughness, and the Evil Character’s strength is less than the Hero’s toughness. The Evil Character is discarded, and your Hero withdraws to your territory.

• The Hero ignores the Evil Character. The Hero and the Evil Character each withdraw to his owner’s territory.

• All blocking Evil Characters were removed from battle. Surviving Heroes return to their owners’ territories.

All enhancements played during the Battle Phase (except set-aside or weapon-class enhancements, or cards placed on other cards during battle) are discarded to the respective owner’s discard pile. Assuming no dominants are played during Battle Resolution to prevent it, the rescue attempt is successful, and your opponent must select and surrender to you one available Lost Soul from his Land of Bondage.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** July 07, 2011, 10:31:34 PM »

It doesn't allow you to add a character via Unknown Nation but I see how you might draw that conclusion. The reason that doesn't work is that you have to complete all abilities before another ability can activate. If you have Claudia + ET in battle with one blue and one purple enhancement played and I CM ET the purple enhancement is discard too. You don't get to leave it there while you play a banding card on Claudia to add another purple character.

The portion I think you're looking at and drawing the conclusion that you can use Unknown Nation to keep enhancements is only referring to cards that exchange one character for another. For example Wheel within a Wheel and Temptation.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:29:40 AM »

Alright, thanks guys. That's all I needed.

Quote from: Gabe on July 07, 2011, 09:55:51 PM

#2 - I'd like to point out that Caleb is NOT a giant slayer.

Really? Oh. Is there a list of them somewhere because I didn't see "giant-slayers" in the REG?

Gabe · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2011, 09:12:41 AM »

A list of Giant Slayers can be found here.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #15 on:** July 08, 2011, 12:22:59 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 07, 2011, 10:31:34 PM

The portion I think you're looking at and drawing the conclusion that you can use Unknown Nation to keep enhancements is only referring to cards that exchange one character for another. For example Wheel within a Wheel and Temptation.

I'm not actually sure that Unknown Nation (or Madness or discarding GoH) wouldn't be another way to "immediately replace" a character in battle of matching brigade. However, it's not important enough to me to start a discussion on the other side until at least after Nats. There's just too many other fish to fry. I'll just leave this here so someone will remind me in August to think about this some more

TheJaylor · « **Reply #16 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:14:55 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 08, 2011, 09:12:41 AM

A list of Giant Slayers can be found here.

Thank you for clearing that up about Caleb. I read the verse and figured that "drove out" implied that he killed them and I was positive that the Anakites were giants.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** July 08, 2011, 01:57:49 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 08, 2011, 12:22:59 PM

Quote from: Gabe on July 07, 2011, 10:31:34 PM
The portion I think you're looking at and drawing the conclusion that you can use Unknown Nation to keep enhancements is only referring to cards that exchange one character for another. For example Wheel within a Wheel and Temptation.
I'm not actually sure that Unknown Nation (or Madness or discarding GoH) wouldn't be another way to "immediately replace" a character in battle of matching brigade. However, it's not important enough to me to start a discussion on the other side until at least after Nats. There's just too many other fish to fry. I'll just leave this here so someone will remind me in August to think about this some more

No special ability can immediately follow another one, unless they are on the same card, or are triggered abilities with a trigger that went off. Unknown Nation is neither. It seems this would be a fairly easy issue to solve.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #18 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:03:13 PM »

What about something in the case of Reach -> AoCP? What is the definition of "immediately follow"?

Gabe · « **Reply #19 on:** July 08, 2011, 02:24:41 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on July 08, 2011, 02:03:13 PM

What about something in the case of Reach -> AoCP? What is the definition of "immediately follow"?

That means it's part of, or tied to, the same ability. In the example you provide of Reach + AoCp, part of the ability on Reach allows you to play an enhancement. If AoCp is that enhancement it's tied to Reach's ability.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** July 08, 2011, 04:20:48 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 08, 2011, 01:57:49 PM

No special ability can immediately follow another one, unless they are on the same card, or are triggered abilities with a trigger that went off. Unknown Nation is neither. It seems this would be a fairly easy issue to solve.

So either the REG quote did not mean "immediately" (most likely scenario), or there is a way to immediately replace a hero who is being "removed or withdraws." What is an example of the latter, since exchange is not listed in that quote?

Gabe · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2011, 04:34:06 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 08, 2011, 04:20:48 PM

So either the REG quote did not mean "immediately" (most likely scenario), or there is a way to immediately replace a hero who is being "removed or withdraws." What is an example of the latter, since exchange is not listed in that quote?

As I mentioned previously, Temptation is one example. There are other cards that do the same thing, like any choose the blocker or choose the rescuer.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** July 08, 2011, 04:39:04 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on July 08, 2011, 04:34:06 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 08, 2011, 04:20:48 PM
So either the REG quote did not mean "immediately" (most likely scenario), or there is a way to immediately replace a hero who is being "removed or withdraws." What is an example of the latter, since exchange is not listed in that quote?

As I mentioned previously, Temptation is one example. There are other cards that do the same thing, like any choose the blocker or choose the rescuer.

CTB/CTR are not considered removal or withdrawal abilities. In fact, the REG entry for CTB specifically states that it is not a withdraw ability.

Gabe · « **Reply #23 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:02:08 PM »

Temptation is not a CTB/CTR card, it's a withdraw card.

But I though the question was whether or not enhancements hung out after a character leaves battle? The answer is that yes they do, provided the same ability or set of abilities that made them leave battle adds another character that has the ability to use the brigade. If not they are discarded with the character. CTR and CTB both apply in that situation.

*edit* I can't really tell if you don't understand what I'm saying or if you just disagree. If it's the former I'd like to help. If it's the later that's OK too but I'll withdraw from the conversation because I don't care to turn this into a debate.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** July 08, 2011, 05:43:38 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 08, 2011, 12:22:59 PM

I'm not actually sure that Unknown Nation (or Madness or discarding GoH) wouldn't be another way to "immediately replace" a character in battle of matching brigade. However, it's not important enough to me to start a discussion on the other side until at least after Nats.

I think that there are enough people that use Grapes and Unknown Nation that this should be addressed now rather than later.

Quote from: Gabe on July 08, 2011, 05:02:08 PM

I can't really tell if you don't understand what I'm saying or if you just disagree. If it's the former I'd like to help. If it's the later that's OK too but I'll withdraw from the conversation because I don't care to turn this into a debate.

I've already told you how I have been ruling it, so my intentions should have been clear. If I am ruling it wrong, then I need to understand why. The more obvious place to look for this ruling is in the Battle Resolution section, which indicates that dominants can be played. You have brought up a quote that I have never seen, since it is part of the "Use Other Enhancements" ability. Why would I look there for a question about Grapes or Unknown Nation?

I think you are treating this more trivially than it should be treated, especially with Regionals taking place. I admit that I am unsettled about this ruling, but I have already explained why I am concerned about making correct rulings at major tournaments. I have Southeast Regionals coming up in one week, with players in the top .001% that I really would rather not have to face-off with.

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Author Topic: 2 questions.... (Read 4850 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!