Check out our Event Calendar! View birthdays, holidays and upcoming tournaments!
Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2010, 01:41:33 PMQuote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 01:28:59 PMQuote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PMWhen a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?! Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN". Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it. I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.
Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 01:28:59 PMQuote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PMWhen a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.
Quote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PMWhen a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?! Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN". Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it. I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.
QuoteHere's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.I agree with this(and think it's the main reason for TFG) but wouldn't the battle end up as Claudia vs. TFG in a FBTN battle?
Here's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.
1) Lydia is blocked by 12FG. Lydia tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding." Fellowship does not happen. I am correct about this scenario, right?2) PAUL is blocked by 12FG. Paul tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes. Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding, and my negating of banding cannot be negated." Owner of Paul says, "Yeah, but anything Paul plays cannot be negated either. The band happens despite your CBN negating of banding." The banding is allowed to occur?
Is the scenario any different whether its a hero whose enhancements cannot be negated, or an enhancement that no matter who plays it cannot be negated?
No because the FBTN is negated when the band to Captain is negated. The only time FBTN sticks if the banding is negated is when it causes a loop.
Stefferweffer, The only reason 12FG has the CBN is so that his SA could not be negated by a FBTN character that entered battle before or after him. That is all. The CBN has no other meaning. I think too many people are assuming that CBN for 12FG means that there is no possible way to band, and that is simply not true.
Thank you. And I assume it works in reverse too? If we had a hero that negated all banding, cannot be negated, that you could still use TxP Gomer's ability?And I assume that if an EC plays a CBN battle winner removing the hero from battle, that the hero cannot respond by playing another CBN card?
12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.
Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2010, 02:27:36 PM12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.But that's not actually true. 12FG is NOT negating the banding ability of Transfig if it is in battle. This seems unintuitive.
Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 10:28:43 PM12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.
12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.
Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on June 18, 2010, 10:32:37 PMQuote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 10:28:43 PM12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.OK, but then you're saying that 12FG ability is being stopped by the "bullet-proof glass". But 12FG ability is CBN, which intuitively means that it can't be stopped.Now I understand the rock-paper-scissors thing, which would say that protection beats CBN. And I'm fine with that, but a long time ago it was ruled that 12FG stopped Cherubim+ET+PoA. Now normally PoA would protect all heroes from being targeted, and therefore, it would stop 12FG from targeting Cherubim, and yet that is how it was ruled.What I'm saying is that this appears inconsistent. If the protection of PoA doesn't stop 12FG from targeting, then the protection of Transfig shouldn't allow it to stop 12FG from targeting. And if 12FG targets, then he hits, because he is CBN.
POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.
Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?Thanks!
QuotePOA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.A few points:- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities. POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.- You cannot protect a special ability.- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all. You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.
Quote from: Bryon on June 19, 2010, 02:50:17 AMQuotePOA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.A few points:- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities. POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.- You cannot protect a special ability.- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all. You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.You can't protect a special ability? Isn't that what CBN does?