Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Quote from: jmhartz on June 18, 2010, 01:41:33 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 01:28:59 PM

Quote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PM

When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X".  That's all.

That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly.  But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding.  How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability.  And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"?  I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it.  Can you help me see that?

The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated.  He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig).  But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.

This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal.  Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior.  Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.

What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?!  Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN".  Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it.  I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.

I think the term "bypass" was a bad choice of a word(?). I think that since negate is a 'stop'  it doesn't stop anything until the something is attempted. And in this case you can't stop the transfiguration. I don't like it. I think of the CBN as also being a able to stop all banding that followsand it can't be neggated., but like Professor Obama you can't argue with a Prof. 

What is the point of having a card that says "Cannot be negated", posting it as one of the top "Ten Commandments of Redemption" ("cannot be negated means CANNOT be negated ever"), and then saying that it CAN be negated by another CBN card?!  Shouldn't the "commandment" be revised to "CBN can only be negated by another CBN".  Last I checked interrupting an enhancement to do something is a part of negating it.  I didn't even know there was an inititiative check if a CBN enhancement was removing a character from battle.

Actually, that is what makes CBN so special.  It CAN'T be negated by ANYTHING, including a CBN negate.  CBN basically means "protected from negate".  If the ability which happens to be CBN doesn't work against a particular target, it's not like it's of a sudden negated.

Consider this scenario:  I attack with Lydia, who is protected from capture.  She is the only hero in play.  You block with Esau the Hunter, I grant you initiative, and you play Stocks.  What happens?  Nothing.  Lydia is PROTECTED from capture.  She is not negating Stocks, but since Stocks has no legal targets, it doesn't capture anyone.  Stocks is CBN on Esau, but it still doesn't work against anything that is PROTECTED against it.  If there is one more hero in play, then Stocks captures him/her.  But Stocks was never negated simply because it didn't have a legal target - this is true of any CBN ability.

It's the same way with 12FG and Transfiguration.  Transfiguration's banding ability is CBN, which means it is PROTECTED from negate.  The fact that 12FG's ability is CBN has nothing to do with his actual ability to negate banding.  And his ability cannot negate Transfig because Transfig is CBN.  12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.  So if Elijah enters battle via Transfig, he cannot band to Elisha, becaus 12FG is negating his ability to do so.  The key is that 12FG's ability is not negated simply because someting was protected from being targeted by his ability.

1)  Lydia is blocked by 12FG.  Lydia tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes.  Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding."  Fellowship does not happen.  I am correct about this scenario, right?

2)  PAUL is blocked by 12FG.  Paul tries to play Fellowship and band in a bunch of other NT heroes.  Owner of 12FG says, "No, 12FG negates (prevents) all banding, and my negating of banding cannot be negated."  Owner of Paul says, "Yeah, but anything Paul plays cannot be negated either.  The band happens despite your CBN negating of banding."  The banding is allowed to occur?

both of those scenarios are correct.

Is the scenario any different whether its a hero whose enhancements cannot be negated, or an enhancement that no matter who plays it cannot be negated?

no. CBN=CBN

No because the FBTN is negated when the band to Captain is negated.  The only time FBTN sticks if the banding is negated is when it causes a loop.

ok i understand that now. I got confused because i was thinking of a situation where you band to a FBTN character.

Stefferweffer, The only reason 12FG has the CBN is so that his SA could not be negated by a FBTN character that entered battle before or after him. That is all. The CBN has no other meaning. I think too many people are assuming that CBN for 12FG means that there is no possible way to band, and that is simply not true.

Thank you.  And I assume it works in reverse too?  If we had a hero that negated all banding, cannot be negated, that you could still use TxP Gomer's ability?

And I assume that if an EC plays a CBN battle winner removing the hero from battle, that the hero cannot respond by playing another CBN card?

12FG is still negating all banding abilities whether Transfig is in battle or not, because his ability is also CBN.

But that's not actually true.  12FG is NOT negating the banding ability of Transfig if it is in battle.  This seems unintuitive.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 10:28:43 PM

12fg is TRYING to negate everything but Transfig has a shield against that negate.

Picture 12FG with a 9mm pistol that shoots any banding. Now picture Transfig working BEHIND bullet proof glass. It doesn't matter how awesome 12fg's gun is, it WON'T break that glass.

OK, but then you're saying that 12FG ability is being stopped by the "bullet-proof glass".  But 12FG ability is CBN, which intuitively means that it can't be stopped.

Now I understand the rock-paper-scissors thing, which would say that protection beats CBN.  And I'm fine with that, but a long time ago it was ruled that 12FG stopped Cherubim+ET+PoA.  Now normally PoA would protect all heroes from being targeted, and therefore, it would stop 12FG from targeting Cherubim, and yet that is how it was ruled.

What I'm saying is that this appears inconsistent.  If the protection of PoA doesn't stop 12FG from targeting, then the protection of Transfig shouldn't allow it to stop 12FG from targeting.  And if 12FG targets, then he hits, because he is CBN.

With 2 Elders (Bryon and Prof A) as well as a couple REPs (YMT and RR) all siding on the side of Transfig working in spite of 12FG, I will submit to that as the official ruling.

POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.

A few points:

- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities.  POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.

- You cannot protect a special ability.

- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all.  You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.

Transfiguration isn't ignored. Enhancements can only be ignored insofar as they can not directly affect the ignoring card. So HHI can't ignore Transfiguration, and it can't prevent it, so yes, FSP + Transfiguration + Moses is 12/12 FBTN with nothing being ignored. But as mentioned earlier, Elijah cannot be brought in because he is ignored (as a banding card).

Quote from: Bryon on June 19, 2010, 02:50:17 AM

Quote

POA (CBN) Vs 12fg IS inconsistent, I completely agree with you but alas, I am not a PTB.

A few points:

- 12fg is a negate that targets banding abilities.  POA is a protect that targets characters, not special abilities.

- You cannot protect a special ability.

- A special ability either has CBN at the moment it is played, or it does not have CBN at all.  You can't retroactivey make a hero's banding ability CBN.

You can't protect a special ability? Isn't that what CBN does?

CBI/CBP/CBN/CBR are technically their own ability. They function like protects, but are not classified as such. This is because typical protect abilities have no effect on negates.