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Twelve Fingered giant stops all banding and cannot be negated. Opponent plays Transfiguration to band Moses and/or Elijah in, and Transfiguration says cannot be negated, prevented, or interrupted. Who wins?
Same thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?
Any character who has the potential to band is considered a banding card. Household Idols ignores banding cards, which means banding cards cannot enter battle when HHI is active.
QuoteTwelve Fingered giant stops all banding and cannot be negated. Opponent plays Transfiguration to band Moses and/or Elijah in, and Transfiguration says cannot be negated, prevented, or interrupted. Who wins?Transfiguration would still work against 12FG because its CBN. CBN can't be negated even with a CBN negate like 12FG.QuoteSame thing with Household idols, which says that heroes may not band, and that good banding cards have no effect. Can you play Transfiguration with HHI active?As far as HHI is concerned i'm not 100% sure but i think transfiguration would work. HHI is a prevent and an Ignore so I know you can't bring a banding hero into battle but i believe a CBN banding enhancement would work.(i'll wait to see what others say about this though to make sure it accurate ^_^
Transfiguration definitely works with 12FG. Transfiguration is not trying to negate 12FG, so 12FG's CBN is irrelevant. 12FG is trying to negate Transfiguration, but it cannot since Transfiguration is CBN.HHI says that good banding cards are ignored. Transfiguration is a good banding card. I know there was a debate about whether enhancements can be ignored, but I thought I saw Tim Maly say that they can. Of course, he is the black sheep of the Elder flock, so we can wait for more Elderly input.
But if you allow Transfig to happen, then you allowed the CBN of 12FG to be negated didn't you? I thought that the timing is everything, and since the block by 12FG happened first that it would stop Trans.
When I asked about TxP gomer banding to 12FG, they said that it was allowed because Gomer's CBN banding happens FIRST, so that 12FG cannot negate a CBN ability that happened first. I don't know why it doesn't work the same here, since 12FG happens first.
Transfiguration works with HHI up. However, it CANNOT bring in Elijah, because even though it is CBN, Elijah is a banding card that cannot be brought into battle because of HHI.
Transfiguration doesn't negate anything, it just bypasses any negates, whether or not they are CBN. TFG would continue to negate any other banding that battle (unless it's CBN). But Transfiguration works...Timing has nothing to do with it.
I'm still not sure on this part though. It seems like it would make sense for timing to come into play. If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what. Then it doesn't make sense that you could then band (even if it were CBN banding). Otherwise, "no matter what" really doesn't mean "no matter what". Really 12FG would then say that you can't band unless it's CBN banding. Which would basically just be that same thing as just "Negate all banding". By adding the CBN to 12FG, I think it might go to another level, where even CBN banding wouldn't work. Does that make sense?
If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what.
Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 11:16:50 AM If 12FG says that you can't band, no matter what. This is the fallacy of the argument. The CBN part of 12FG does not say "no matter what." It says "You can't stop me (I'm looking at you CotH)." Transfiguration is not trying to stop 12FG, it is trying to work in spite of 12F. The CBN part of Transfiguration says the same thing that 12FG's CBN says: "You can't stop me."
This is the fallacy of the argument. The CBN part of 12FG does not say "no matter what."
Nothing is being negated, just bypassed.
When did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking... 12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets.
Laying aside all my assumptions and trying to understand the otherside of this discussion,.... are you saying that because12FG s/a "Negate all banding abilities. Cannot be negated." can only activate or trigger after a banding ability is played, that because Transfiguration would play triggering 12FG s/a and because Transfiguration is a CBN then 12FG can't negate?
But intuitively, doesn't it seem like if 12FG's ability stops banding, and then you band, that you somehow negated his ability to stop you?
Quote from: CountFount on June 18, 2010, 11:59:23 AMWhen did the term 'bypass' become a special ability? Looking in REG...Still looking... 12FG stops all banding is about as intuitive as it gets. Totally agree. This "bypass" thing is throwing me because I've never heard of it before either. Takes me back now to my Gomer TxP banding to 12FG. Who wins that one now? They both say CBN!
Help an old man understand.
If I'm wrong at any point here, please point it out.When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all. Activating a banding ability while TFG is in battle does not negate TFG's ability. TFG's ability continues to work. A card negates another card (X) if and only if it says "Negate X". All CBN does is keep cards like CotH and Ehud's Dagger from stopping it. CBN does not mean "no matter what".In the Gomer+TFG situation, the fact that TFG's ability is CBN makes no difference, since no card in this situation says "negate TFG's ability" or something like that. Gomer isn't negating TFG by banding.From the REG:Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card. The negate ability is played in the Field of Battle. It can undo another card already played unless the card explicitly states it cannot be negated. Negate is the same as ‘interrupt and prevent’ combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle. (See Cannot be negated).Negate is this and nothing more. Hopefully I'm clearing things up rather than muddying the waters further. Prof A or YMT, let me know if I'm wrong here.
When a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.
Quote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PMWhen a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?
Quote from: Prof Underwood on June 18, 2010, 01:28:59 PMQuote from: D-man on June 18, 2010, 01:03:04 PMWhen a card says "Cannot be Negated", all that means is that it is not stopped by a card that says "Negate X", "Prevent X", or "Interrupt X". That's all.That is an interesting way to look at it, and like I said earlier, perhaps I've been looking at CBN incorrectly. But it still seems like in this case 12FG's ability is stopping banding. How can banding occur, unless something stops his ability. And how can his ability be stopped if it can't be stopped by a "Negate X", "Prevent X", or a "Interrupt X"? I'm just not seeing how you can "bypass" an ability without stopping it. Can you help me see that?The thing is, 12FG's ability isn't negated. He still would stop, say, He Is Risen from bringing a NT angel into battle (if it happened in the same battle as Transfig). But Transfig is CBN, so it can't be stopped by something that prevents banding, even if the prevent banding is CBN.This is similar to a situation posed a few weeks ago where Josh the HP attacked, Fallen Warrior defended and played Bringing Fear, then Josh played Zeal. Bringing Fear is not being "negated" when Zeal goes right through and discards Fallen Warrior. Zeal is CBN, so it can't be stopped, even by a CBN negate.
Here's how TFGs negate does work. I have a huge FBTN band (Claudia to Simeon to Jacob to Captain). You block with TFG. Usually, TFGs ability to negate banding would be stopped by Captain. However, because he is CBN, it can't. Captain tries to negate the negate, but he can't. So it goes to Claudia vs. TFG in a non-FBTN battle.
