Cactus Game Design Message Boards

REG 7.0 is live! In addition to releasing an update for LoC one of our goals this with this update is to help simplify some of the more complex areas of the game. Following are some of the larger changes in this revision.

T2 Reserve Increase (pg. 7) - now lines up with the Host Guide

Do As Much As You Can (pg. 8, 14)

Action Priority (pg. 9, 10, 15, 87, 98-99) - clarifying Dominant Init and other player actions

Triggers Stack, Begins, Blocks (pg. 10, 91, 92) - makes the begins and blocks check much simpler, but requires excluding them from stacking like other triggers

Colon Definition (pg. 11-12)

Instead (pg. 19-20) - added a line to clarify that the replacing effect can be negated

Activate an Ability (pg. 23)

Bounce (pg. 28, 71) - replacing Return to Hand

Convert (pg. 33) - you may select any brigade when one is not specified

Ignore (pg. 49) - removed part 4, so it no longer wins the battle if played post-block

Negate (pg. 56) - negates do not cascade and they do target cards in addition to special abilities (changes Babylonian Siege Army ruling, and Babylonian Siege Army can target meek cards)

Play an Enhancement (pg. 59)

Resurrect (pg. 70) - no longer defaults to holder's cards

Search (pg. 73) - you can't choose to partially fail a search of multiple locations. You can partially fail if there are no targets in one of the locations. (Abe's Descendant, Mist)

Set-Aside (pg. 74)

Artifact (pg. 88-89) - can't be reactivated during the turn they're deactivated

Battle (pg. 89-90)

Contents (pg. 96)

Preparation Phase (pg. 117)

Unique (pg. 124) - unique characters can only enter battle once per turn and do not reactive on re-entry after a negated band

New Definitions - Bearer, Meek and Pre-Game Phase

ORDIR 3.0 is live! Following are some key updates.

II Chronicles Card (pg. 49-50)

King or Queen of Judah (pg. 64) - rulers of unified Israel are considered to have ruled both Israel and Judah

Testament Identifiers Override Reference (pg. 76) - the Matthew 1 postexilic characters are O.T., not N.T. (and not both)

Postexilic (pg. 81)

I’m also not understanding the new Ignore rule. Could you please explain further, with an example or two, how this change works?

Why did ignore get a useless change? It isn't broken or confusing.

Ignore used to do 4 things:
1) "Protect" the ignoring card from the ignored card.
2) "Protect" the ignored card from the ignoring card.
3) Stop the ignored card from entering battle.
4) If the ignored card is in battle, disregard it for determining the battle outcome.

We removed the 4th part, to eliminate the "you're winning but haven't won and it doesn't cause SI"/"infinitive initiative for the ignored character" scenarios.

The 3rd part still does what it's always done, keeping the ignored characters out of battle.

The first 2 parts create a stalemate, and without the 4th part to remove the ignored card from the determination of the battle outcome, that's not a battle winning condition for the Hero. The stalemate would win the battle for the Evil Character, but part 4 didn't usually (if ever) matter for evil ignores.

Examples:
Jacob (FF) enters battle and plays Reuben's Torn Clothes (Genesis Heroes ignore an evil brigade) off his ability. The opponent blocks with an ignored character from hand.
Old Rules: The ignored character is treated as not in battle for determining battle outcome, so it's in a perpetual state of losing the battle and has infinite initiative until the ignore is negated. Jacob and the ignored character are "protected" from each other so neither can win the battle in another way.
New Rules: Jacob and the ignored character are "protected" from each other. This is a stalemate situation, so initiative passes back and forth as usual in a stalemate.

Music Leader is blocked by the 3 Canaanite giant band, ending with Talmai to withdraw Music Leader. Word of Christ is played on Music Leader to negate the withdraw and ignore black.
Old Rules: The Canaanite giants are treated as not in battle for determining battle outcome, so they're in a perpetual state of losing the battle and have infinite initiative until the ignore is negated. Music Leader is "protected" from the giants (and the giants from Music Leader) so neither can win the battle in another way.
New Rules: Music Leader is "protected" from the giants (and the giants from Music Leader). This is a stalemate so initiative passes back and forth as usual in a stalemate.

*Parts 1 and 2 of ignore are not protects for ruling purposes, but are functionally identical, I think. "Protect" is shorthand for spelling that out all over the post.

Why did ignore get a useless change? It isn't broken or confusing.

Winning the battle but not causing SI/infinite initiative scenarios do cause confusion among some players.

Ignore is like a mutual protect. A protected character (like Philistine Garrison) can still defeat/harm their opponent if they are not also protected.

So... what's the point of good ignores, then?

Pre-block ignore is still a very strong play if they don't have something to block with from hand, deck, Reserve, etc.

Overall this is a big nerf to ignore. The 4th component to ignore was one of the more complicated abilities in the game. It's the part that caused almost all of the questions surrounding ignore and made it difficult to understand. As we look to help simplify Redemption to make the game more accessible we felt this was a necessary change.

There are obviously casualties involved with a change like this but we felt the benefits are worth it.

okay so in the end..

Good ignore abilities can now no longer win you a rescue attempt?  Would this be correct?

Unless you can pop off a pre-block ignore.

So what about cards like Red Dragon and Queen Vashti who block with an ignore attached? What happens when they block?  Or what about cards like Faith of Moses’ Parents that interrupt then ignore? What happens to that card/ability now?

So what about cards like Red Dragon and Queen Vashti who block with an ignore attached? What happens when they block?  Or what about cards like Faith of Moses’ Parents that interrupt then ignore? What happens to that card/ability now?

The evil ignores are largely unchanged by this change, as the stalemate is sufficient to get the block. There's probably some scenario involving banding where adding the ignored character into battle results in the numbers being enough to discard a non-ignoring character. (Red Dragon banding to Abaddon while opposing angels with enough strength to discard Abaddon.)

FoMP becomes a way to save your character from an ability or losing by the numbers, but it won't win you the battle.

Quote from: Gabe on January 29, 2020, 01:34:06 PM

Quote from: Bobbert on January 29, 2020, 01:21:39 PM

So... what's the point of good ignores, then?

Pre-block ignore is still a very strong play if they don't have something to block with from hand, deck, Reserve, etc.

Overall this is a big nerf to ignore. The 4th component to ignore was one of the more complicated abilities in the game. It's the part that caused almost all of the questions surrounding ignore and made it difficult to understand. As we look to help simplify Redemption to make the game more accessible we felt this was a necessary change.

There are obviously casualties involved with a change like this but we felt the benefits are worth it.

I see no benefit, only a reduction in the number of good battle winners that significantly hurts several themes. I know of no one who was complaining about ignore as of this junction. If enough players dissent, could this potentially be repealed?

No one complains about Ignore, because there are only two things that happen with ignore.  You either understand how it works and that is that, or you don't and you don't play those cards.  There are constantly questions about ignore and how it works.  You have been at several tournaments with me that I've had to explain ignore at, and got no where.  It ends with basically.  This person wins.  You can play this, this and this, but if you can't negate/interrupt it you are giving a LS.

Quote from: Watchman on January 29, 2020, 02:41:41 PM

So what about cards like Red Dragon and Queen Vashti who block with an ignore attached? What happens when they block?  Or what about cards like Faith of Moses’ Parents that interrupt then ignore? What happens to that card/ability now?

The evil ignores are largely unchanged by this change, as the stalemate is sufficient to get the block. There's probably some scenario involving banding where adding the ignored character into battle results in the numbers being enough to discard a non-ignoring character. (Red Dragon banding to Abaddon while opposing angels with enough strength to discard Abaddon.)

FoMP becomes a way to save your character from an ability or losing by the numbers, but it won't win you the battle.

So with FoMP, if my hero is being discarded by a SA, and I use FoMP to ITB and ignore black brigade (the discarding brigade), I’m not being discarded now, but what now? With this rule change is it now that I can’t be harmed at this point by black (unless my ignore is negated), but I’m also not winning the battle by ignoring black. So my strength still counts but his strength doesn’t, but his toughness still counts.  If this is the case it’s no different than a Protect ability. So what’s the point of having an ignore ability anymore then?

I'm not a fan of the change to ignore either. In my opinion all this change does is complicated it more with mutual protection. As someone who has played gen-egyptians for 15ish years the hardest part of explaining ignore is that they can't target my character. With this mutual protect that is still going to be the case. I have also found that the majority of players ive played against have understood ignore just fine, especially after I explain it and literally set their guy As aside well explaining. (Pretty much your guy can't see me and i walk around, you can play but cant target my guy without negating or interrupting). Followed by giving examples of what they could play. It's very rare for me to have someone that still doesn't understand. I think with how the rule is currently its going to cause far more confusion.

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 29, 2020, 03:03:00 PM

Quote from: Watchman on January 29, 2020, 02:41:41 PM

So what about cards like Red Dragon and Queen Vashti who block with an ignore attached? What happens when they block?  Or what about cards like Faith of Moses’ Parents that interrupt then ignore? What happens to that card/ability now?

The evil ignores are largely unchanged by this change, as the stalemate is sufficient to get the block. There's probably some scenario involving banding where adding the ignored character into battle results in the numbers being enough to discard a non-ignoring character. (Red Dragon banding to Abaddon while opposing angels with enough strength to discard Abaddon.)

FoMP becomes a way to save your character from an ability or losing by the numbers, but it won't win you the battle.

So with FoMP, if my hero is being discarded by a SA, and I use FoMP to ITB and ignore black brigade (the discarding brigade), I’m not being discarded now, but what now? With this rule change is it now that I can’t be harmed at this point by black (unless my ignore is negated), but I’m also not winning the battle by ignoring black. So my strength still counts but his strength doesn’t, but his toughness still counts.  If this is the case it’s no different than a Protect ability. So what’s the point of having an ignore ability anymore then?

In that scenario, you're in a stalemate. You can't be harmed by black (part 1 of ignore). Black can't be harmed by you (part 2 of ignore). Neither your strength nor his strength counts.