Author Topic: REG 7.0 and ORDIR 3.0 Change Log (Read 29167 times)

SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx · « **Reply #25 on:** January 29, 2020, 07:51:36 PM »

Quote from: Watchman on January 29, 2020, 06:30:34 PM

@Silencedmatrix That’s not entirely correct. Since ignore is an ongoing ability you can ITB (temporarily interrupting their ignore) and add a black brigade EC to battle from anywhere. Once that character is in battle, however, the interrupt is over (once the EC’s ability completes) and black is being ignored once again.

That is true, well played.

Watchman · « **Reply #26 on:** January 29, 2020, 08:15:46 PM »

Quote from: SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx on January 29, 2020, 07:51:36 PM

Quote from: Watchman on January 29, 2020, 06:30:34 PM
@Silencedmatrix That’s not entirely correct. Since ignore is an ongoing ability you can ITB (temporarily interrupting their ignore) and add a black brigade EC to battle from anywhere. Once that character is in battle, however, the interrupt is over (once the EC’s ability completes) and black is being ignored once again.
That is true, well played.

Noob. 🙄

jbeers285 · « **Reply #27 on:** January 29, 2020, 09:35:46 PM »

I actually like ignore the way it was for top players and people who have been around for awhile and want deeper levels to the game. That said

Benefits of this change are really good for the longevity of the game. I am not a play tester and I’ve never been a judge or ruling official but I see this as stylistically rotating ignore abilities out the game. (No ignore in LoC and drastically lowering its offensive value. This stream lines the game and takes away one of the most non-interactive parts of the game.

I predict ignore disappearing from the game in the long run. That is awesome for making the game easier to teach new players.

I love this game and truly believe set rotation is the answer to extending redemption and making it available to new players. Since set rotation isn’t happening for sure at the moment this change acts as a version of that without actually implementing rotation.

This is about long term health, just like banning Mourn and Weep, Samuel and the Liner.

I do wish we acted faster overall but I see this as a positive step for redemption towards rotation and for building play groups/adding new players.

CtheTree · « **Reply #28 on:** January 30, 2020, 12:03:03 AM »

As someone who has been away from Redemption for awhile and is just now getting back into it, I really appreciate this rule change regarding "ignore." I will be honest "ignore" was entirely complicated for me having been used to the way it was during Disciples when The Garden Tomb reigned supreme. The way it was changed to be was confusing and now it makes more sense with this recent change. I echo jbeers285's sentiment regarding "ignore" fading from the game and agree it is a good thing. Far easier for new players starting out. Thank you Redemption Elders for this decision.

Watchman · « **Reply #29 on:** January 30, 2020, 10:59:18 AM »

So if I can’t win a battle with it from the hero’s side, and if I play something like FoMP during battle and ignore my opponent, but never have initiative to play anything to actually win the battle then what is the purpose and strategy of having an offensive ignore in one’s deck now, like FoMP?

jbeers285 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 30, 2020, 11:41:00 AM »

Quote from: Watchman on January 30, 2020, 10:59:18 AM

So if I can’t win a battle with it from the hero’s side, and if I play something like FoMP during battle and ignore my opponent, but never have initiative to play anything to actually win the battle then what is the purpose and strategy of having an offensive ignore in one’s deck now, like FoMP?

Playing an offensive ignore now basically blocks the rescuer. The purpose is mostly defensive at this point and this rule change pushes ignore to brink of extinction.

Watchman · « **Reply #31 on:** January 30, 2020, 12:27:09 PM »

Clearly it’s a defensive boost. But again, where does that leave the good offensive cards now? Virtually unusable.

Drrek · « **Reply #32 on:** January 30, 2020, 01:38:37 PM »

I know I haven't played this game in a long time, but I dislike the change to ignore quite a lot, because I'm not a fan of making the good ignore cards effectively useless. I'd rather see the immune/protect part of ignore be phased out than the battle winning part (that is make it so the hero rescues a soul even if they lose by the numbers, because from a flavor perspective they are ignoring the evil character even if the evil character beats them)

Reth · « **Reply #33 on:** January 30, 2020, 02:49:31 PM »

I also would not like to see ignore going for good. The recent change seems to be a good step in the right direction IMO.

Master Q · « **Reply #34 on:** January 30, 2020, 04:44:18 PM »

Quote from: Reth on January 30, 2020, 02:49:31 PM

I also would not like to see ignore going for good. The recent change seems to be a good step in the right direction IMO.

Sounds like you're both against and for this...? Unless "going for good" means "working for offense"...

Definitely in the camp of phasing out ignore forever. I have not had much trouble understanding it myself, but as someone who played extensively in TGT's heyday I can attest to the confusion it caused so many players. Even now it's probably the most complicated ability in the game. Not to mention it's about the most non-interactive way to play the game.

Besides, any hit Zebulun and Watchful Servant take is good by me.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #35 on:** January 30, 2020, 04:47:35 PM »

Quote from: Watchman on January 30, 2020, 10:59:18 AM

So if I can’t win a battle with it from the hero’s side, and if I play something like FoMP during battle and ignore my opponent, but never have initiative to play anything to actually win the battle then what is the purpose and strategy of having an offensive ignore in one’s deck now, like FoMP?

It's a stalemate, so you do get initiative to play a card to win the battle. You just have to interrupt the ignore first. (Which probably would have worked just as well in place of FoMP, admittedly.)

Quote from: Drrek on January 30, 2020, 01:38:37 PM

I know I haven't played this game in a long time, but I dislike the change to ignore quite a lot, because I'm not a fan of making the good ignore cards effectively useless. I'd rather see the immune/protect part of ignore be phased out than the battle winning part (that is make it so the hero rescues a soul even if they lose by the numbers, because from a flavor perspective they are ignoring the evil character even if the evil character beats them)

Removing the protect portion of ignore leaves you with the pre-block part and the battle winning part, which means your opponent has infinite initiative but they can just defeat you with an ability (discard, capture, etc.) instead of negating the ignore.

Drrek · « **Reply #36 on:** January 30, 2020, 05:20:25 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 30, 2020, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: Drrek on January 30, 2020, 01:38:37 PM
I know I haven't played this game in a long time, but I dislike the change to ignore quite a lot, because I'm not a fan of making the good ignore cards effectively useless. I'd rather see the immune/protect part of ignore be phased out than the battle winning part (that is make it so the hero rescues a soul even if they lose by the numbers, because from a flavor perspective they are ignoring the evil character even if the evil character beats them)

Removing the protect portion of ignore leaves you with the pre-block part and the battle winning part, which means your opponent has infinite initiative but they can just defeat you with an ability (discard, capture, etc.) instead of negating the ignore.

Depending on how you defined it, you wouldn't necessarily give infinite initiative, because you could treat a scenario where the hero is losing by the numbers but ignoring the evil character the same as mutual destruction.

Sean · « **Reply #37 on:** January 30, 2020, 05:35:52 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on January 30, 2020, 05:20:25 PM

Depending on how you defined it...

This is part of the reason why we are having this discussion. Some think ignore does one thing and others think it does something else. And even for those that learn the correct way to play it sometimes still disagree with the logic of the ruling.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #38 on:** January 30, 2020, 05:37:47 PM »

If u want to get rid of ignore, just get rid of ignore and make it protect, like we did to immune. I see no down side to this and it doesnt create more confusing rulings

jbeers285 · « **Reply #39 on:** January 30, 2020, 06:10:51 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on January 30, 2020, 05:37:47 PM

If u want to get rid of ignore, just get rid of ignore and make it protect, like we did to immune. I see no down side to this and it doesnt create more confusing rulings

redemption collector 777 · « **Reply #40 on:** January 30, 2020, 07:30:53 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on January 30, 2020, 05:37:47 PM

If u want to get rid of ignore, just get rid of ignore and make it protect, like we did to immune. I see no down side to this and it doesnt create more confusing rulings

Sean · « **Reply #41 on:** January 30, 2020, 07:33:28 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on January 30, 2020, 05:37:47 PM

If u want to get rid of ignore, just get rid of ignore and make it protect, like we did to immune. I see no down side to this and it doesnt create more confusing rulings

While I would be/am sad to see ignore go I also agree this would be a good thing.

Drrek · « **Reply #42 on:** January 30, 2020, 09:25:52 PM »

I have no power, and no real reason to have a say in this in any event, but I dislike the move of removing an ability from the game because its current implementation is confusing when I think the design space is there. Making it another Immune/Protect to me is a waste of card design space to me, but is, I will admit still better than having a functionally useless ability.

Quote from: Sean on January 30, 2020, 05:35:52 PM

Quote from: Drrek on January 30, 2020, 05:20:25 PM
Depending on how you defined it...
This is part of the reason why we are having this discussion. Some think ignore does one thing and others think it does something else. And even for those that learn the correct way to play it sometimes still disagree with the logic of the ruling.

Sure the ruling is confusing now, but my "depending on how you define it" was less of a "how you interpret it" and more of a "how you write it into the rules."

Reth · « **Reply #43 on:** January 31, 2020, 01:01:41 AM »

Quote from: Master Q on January 30, 2020, 04:44:18 PM

Quote from: Reth on January 30, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
I also would not like to see ignore going for good. The recent change seems to be a good step in the right direction IMO.

Sounds like you're both against and for this...? Unless "going for good" means "working for offense"...

Not at all! I'd like to leave it in the current state where part 4 has been removed! What I meant is that this was a step in the direction of making the game more easily to understand and providing a more seamless gameplay.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #44 on:** January 31, 2020, 12:23:43 PM »

First off I want to thank all those involved with these changes for all the time and energy they dedicated to trying to make this game better. It seems like most of the comments so far have been more critical than anything so I at least wanted to start with that.

While a majority of the changes I believe to be great. I do echo the issues many have aired over ignore. I fear that with the change ignore loses its uniqueness as an ability and wont actually simplify the game to make it any easier. It makes it easier to rule but it still will have confusion from old knowledge and the question of "what's the point of the ability if it cant even win a battle anymore"? I feel that question will be shared by both new and old players alike. Ignore also still has confusion with preblock ignore but that's another matter.

I guess I feel ultimately if simplification was the goal just making ignore count as removing a character from battle this granting SI would have been better. For newer players I guess I would say set rotation and careful selections of abilities to implement in the new format would have been ideal but that just my opinion.

I want to thank all those involved again for these primarily great changes and all their work. I just feel we missed the mark a bit on ignore and further look into it should be explored.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 31, 2020, 01:50:49 PM »

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 30, 2020, 04:47:35 PM

Quote from: Watchman on January 30, 2020, 10:59:18 AM
So if I can’t win a battle with it from the hero’s side, and if I play something like FoMP during battle and ignore my opponent, but never have initiative to play anything to actually win the battle then what is the purpose and strategy of having an offensive ignore in one’s deck now, like FoMP?

It's a stalemate, so you do get initiative to play a card to win the battle. You just have to interrupt the ignore first. (Which probably would have worked just as well in place of FoMP, admittedly.)

With the change to negate also targeting the cards themselves, is this accurate. Under mutual protection where negate targets the cards, I am not sure this is the case. Can anyone confirm?

Also, to chime in on the way ignore has changed, I personally think there is value in trying to preserve the ignore ability.

I don’t mean that it should stay the same as it was - it seems that a change is warranted. I also don’t think it should be lumped in to be the same as protect/immune.

First, I think assimilating ignore with protection immediately would be too hasty of a decision and create some unnecessary confusion. I believe that “immune” can be fully absorbed into the protect once the first set rotation happens, but “ignore” would still be present on other cards for a while.

Second, I think there could be value in scaling the ability back (as it has been with this release), but not leaving it there. Other options for a more offensively useful ignore ability could be explored, but that might not be easily visible until seeing how scaling back changes the game mechanics. The recommendation for treating it as a mutual destruction type interaction seems very valid. Or the term can eventually be completely repurposed.

Personally, I still see some value in ignore offensively with the changes, even outside of preblock, especially as more alternate win conditions are introduced to the game.

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #46 on:** January 31, 2020, 02:28:21 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on January 31, 2020, 01:50:49 PM

Quote from: RedemptionAggie on January 30, 2020, 04:47:35 PM
Quote from: Watchman on January 30, 2020, 10:59:18 AM
So if I can’t win a battle with it from the hero’s side, and if I play something like FoMP during battle and ignore my opponent, but never have initiative to play anything to actually win the battle then what is the purpose and strategy of having an offensive ignore in one’s deck now, like FoMP?

It's a stalemate, so you do get initiative to play a card to win the battle. You just have to interrupt the ignore first. (Which probably would have worked just as well in place of FoMP, admittedly.)

With the change to negate also targeting the cards themselves, is this accurate. Under mutual protection where negate targets the cards, I am not sure this is the case. Can anyone confirm?

Negate would target the card with the ignore ability (and the ignore ability), not necessarily the ignoring card (FoMP has the ignore ability but the Hero is the ignoring card) but they're not dependent on each other - you can target one without targeting both. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the question.

goalieking87 · « **Reply #47 on:** January 31, 2020, 02:58:13 PM »

No, that makes sense. I was thinking of it as the same card.

However, for examples sake, if Vashti blocks a royal hero, can the royal hero target her with a negate?

Thanks

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #48 on:** January 31, 2020, 04:08:50 PM »

Quote from: goalieking87 on January 31, 2020, 02:58:13 PM

No, that makes sense. I was thinking of it as the same card.

However, for examples sake, if Vashti blocks a royal hero, can the royal hero target her with a negate?

Thanks

Yes. That's the whole "target one but not the other" part of that addition to negate. You can target the ability without targeting the card (something protected by a different card) or target the card without targeting the ability (a meek card).

Reth · « **Reply #49 on:** January 31, 2020, 06:48:09 PM »

Maybe I missed it, but where is the removal of the cascading negate mentioned (in fact there are at least still 2 references to cascading negate within that version of Reg)?
The negate section does not elaborate on what happens if the negated affect activated sth. which triggered sth. else etc. ...

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Author Topic: REG 7.0 and ORDIR 3.0 Change Log (Read 29167 times)