Cactus Game Design Message Boards

NEW DEFINITION AND EXAMPLES

Special Initiative
When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's special ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's special ability, would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed, they have Special Initiative.

When this occurs, all abilities are paused and suspended (including additional abilities on cards played or any triggers) and the player with their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding game rule).  The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability.  If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type.

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     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Net: “Take any Hero in play prisoner and place in your Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul.”  The player controlling the hero has the opportunity to play an enhancement that either interrupts or negates the effect on Net before it completes and the hero is captured.  Any enhancement that interrupts or negates Net or evil capture could be played.

     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Tenants Kill the Son: “If used by a Pharisee or Sadducee, discard a Hero to draw a card. Cannot be prevented.”  All abilities are paused immediately before the hero is removed from battle, so, before the draw happens, the player controlling the hero has the opportunity to play an enhancement that either interrupts or negates the effect on Tenants Kill the Son.  If after Special Initiative resolves the ability is still active (because nothing was played, or what was played did not permanently negate the ability), then the suspended abilities, in this case the drawing of a card, complete.

     Example: Multiple heroes are in battle, all with toughness of 6 or lower.  The opponent plays Hunger: “All Heroes of one opponent decrease 6/6 for remainder of turn.”  This would discard all heroes in battle, because a character reduced to toughness 0 or less is discarded by game rule.  As all characters are being removed by game rule as a result of an opponent’s ability, the player controlling the heroes has the opportunity to play an enhancement on any of those heroes that either interrupts or negates the effect on Hunger.

     Example: Uriah the Hittite (a Red Canaanite Hero) is in battle, and the opponent discards Magic Charms to capture him: “Protect your Magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your Magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes.”  Even though Magic Charms is already discarded when Special Initiative is given and abilities are paused, the player controlling Uriah may still play Foreign Sword to negate and topdeck it: “Negate an opponent’s evil or neutral card. If used by a Canaanite or Philistine, you may return that card to the top of owner’s deck.”  Because Foreign Sword specifically targets a neutral card, it can target Magic Charms during Special Initiative even though it is out of play.

     Example: Multiple heroes are in battle, and the opponent plays a card to discard only one of them.  There is no Special Initiative, because it did not remove all of the remaining heroes from battle.

     Example: Only one evil character is in battle, and Samuel’s Edict is played on Samuel: “Negate an evil card. Discard an Evil Character. Cannot be negated if the only Hero in battle is Samuel or a Judge with no special ability.”  The special ability is removing the only character in battle, but because it was played on Samuel, it is Cannot be Negated.  Since nothing could be played to interrupt or negate the ability, there is no Special Initiative.

     Example: A single hero is in battle and the opponent plays Net: “Take any Hero in play prisoner and place in your Land of Bondage. Hero is treated as a Lost Soul.”  The player controlling the hero, with Special Initiative, plays Sign of the Rainbow: "Negate and discard the last evil enhancement played in current battle."  Since the ability was negated, the hero remains in battle.  With normal initiative, the blocker plays Israel Pays Tribute from hand: "Negate one enhancement in battle. Opponent may draw a card."  The blocker targets Sign of the Rainbow, and so after Israel Pays Tribute completes (since reactivation cannot insert between abilities), Net attempts to reactivate.  Since the negation was negated, Net is able to reactivate, and it does so with the same targeting (targeting the hero in battle), the same as when it had been played initially.  Once again, this is removing the only hero in battle, and so Special Initiative is granted again.

Please let me know your questions or concerns about this change!

I will update this post with questions, and then the answers so that everyone can see them easily.

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So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

Yes, SI is granted and then NC&H goes off once that ends, if it is able.

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So, does the 2kH/Forgotten History combo work differently now?

It works much the same as far as saving the Archers, that hasn't changed.  However, if you used multiple Archers banded together, each with Horses on them, if you play an enhancement that grants SI on one of them, you do NOT get to keep banding/playing with the others until SI resolves.  That is the new rule, you stop when SI is granted.

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Quote from: KoalaKing on December 09, 2014, 11:36:50 PM

So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Yes, the withdraw can be interrupted or negated before the capture triggers.

This is correct, and does indeed reverse the 'old' ruling on the combo.

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Quote from: jmhartz on November 14, 2014, 12:25:53 PM

So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So a follow up question for this example.  Random Disciple makes a rescue attempt.  He is blocked by Otho w/ NC&H.  Otho decides to discard all cards in battle, which give the Disciple SI.  He plays ML&MG to negate and discard Otho.  Otho now has SI, does that not allow NC&H to be played since it is technically interrupting ML&MG?

Good question.  SI means that they player "has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal."  Technically, a weapon is already played when it enters battle, it is just waiting its 'turn' to activate, but it is already considered 'played' (see Covenant with Death stopping abilities on good weapons pre-block).  Therefore, an enhancement played during SI must come from hand.  So no, NC&H cannot be used during SI if it is already on the character.

And while we have the Warriors Spear + Spy ruling, this case is different in that the character is no longer in play.  Thus, it has been ruled in the past that Otho's weapon cannot activate if he has been discarded, since he is no longer in play for it to complete activation on.

Had the card in your example simply negated Otho without discarding him, then his weapon would activate and could interrupt the negating card.

To recap: Weapons already equipped cannot be used as part of SI, and weapons on characters do not complete activation if the character has already left play by the time they would activate.

This is exactly how I have wanted Special Initiative to be ruled for quite some time now. So I say, this is awesome.

Me gusta. Much more intuitive.

So, does the 2kH/Forgotten History combo work differently now? I'm a bit confused as to why it was used as an example, as it doesn't seem like that changes at all (of course, that might just be me being blind/tired).

I wish it would have been changed that you can play any enhancement that will stop the removal itself, not just the specific ability doing it (e.g. interrupting the battle to kill a Herod in battle, making Herod's Dungeon moot).

So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Quote from: KoalaKing on December 09, 2014, 11:36:50 PM

So, just to be clear, playing Herod's Treachery on HA II is no longer CBI with the capture? In other words, my opponent can negate HT before the capture happens?

Yes, the withdraw can be interrupted or negated before the capture triggers.

This is correct, and does indeed reverse the 'old' ruling on the combo.

Quote from: jmhartz on November 14, 2014, 12:25:53 PM

So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So a follow up question for this example.  Random Disciple makes a rescue attempt.  He is blocked by Otho w/ NC&H.  Otho decides to discard all cards in battle, which give the Disciple SI.  He plays ML&MG to negate and discard Otho.  Otho now has SI, does that not allow NC&H to be played since it is technically interrupting ML&MG?

Good question.  SI means that they player "has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal."  Technically, a weapon is already played when it enters battle, it is just waiting its 'turn' to activate, but it is already considered 'played' (see Covenant with Death stopping abilities on good weapons pre-block).  Therefore, an enhancement played during SI must come from hand.  So no, NC&H cannot be used during SI if it is already on the character.

And while we have the Warriors Spear + Spy ruling, this case is different in that the character is no longer in play.  Thus, it has been ruled in the past that Otho's weapon cannot activate if he has been discarded, since he is no longer in play for it to complete activation on.

Had the card in your example simply negated Otho without discarding him, then his weapon would activate and could interrupt the negating card.

To recap: Weapons already equipped cannot be used as part of SI, and weapons on characters do not complete activation if the character has already left play by the time they would activate.

Moral of the story: Do not equip Otho pre-block if you want to use his self-discard.

I'm trying to catch myself up on current rules.

Reading this:
So this affects, for example, the Emperor Otho/Naaman's C&H scenario.  If Otho is equipped with NC&H and bombs the battle, SI happens before NC&H activates.

So when a EC enters battle with a WC enhancement on them, what ability triggers first, the EC's or the Enhancement, or do you get to choose?

Also when a character gains a set aside ability which ability is first the set aside, or the actually character?

Abilities have a set order of activation, which can be found in the REG:

Special Abilities
These are the instructions printed on the pic-ture of some cards. ( See Anatomy of a Card and
Resolving Special Ability Combinations in the rulebook).
There are two types of special abilities that define how a special ability is carried out: Ongoing
Abilities and Instant Abilities. When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained
abilities), perform the abilities in this order:
 First, complete all special abilities in the order written on the card except those that add a
character to the battle. Note that some special abilities can happen together even though
they may be separated by a period. Second, if the card is a character with either a gained
ability or a weapon-class enhancement, then activate the gained abilities in the order
gained. Finally, activate the special abilities on the carried weapon-class enhancement.
 Complete banding abilities.
 Complete any Choose Blocker or Rescuer abilities.