Author Topic: HP? RIPPED FOR ONLINE? (Continued) (Read 20011 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **on:** February 11, 2009, 06:46:58 PM »

Continues from http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=12850.1155

Quote

Quote
Call me a jerk, but I expect a torn card every time the special ability of HP is used. I don't care if I'm playing against a 4 year old. If you want to use the special ability then you should use the special ability.
Jerk.

I find this extremely over-competitive. If you were teaching a new player, and they used HP, you would make them rip it!?

Quote
If you were teaching a new player, and they used HP, you would make them rip it!?
If a new player read the special ability, they would have no knowledge of the unspoken rule that you don't have to rip it in non-tournament games. I would fully expect them to say something like, "man, that's a weird special ability. Does anyone use this?" Then that gives me the opportunity to teach them about special abilities that say "may"

Actually when my friend pulled that card from a pack, that was our exact reaction, with alot of laughing (A self ripping card is funny). Also I (I also, as stated don't like HP in online play but I will deal with it, I'm just presenting sean's side from my view) would warn them they have to rip it if they wanna use it. If they want to, great, if not well, they learned the value of when to use super cards.

Quote

This isn't a tournament meant to test decks, Cameron. It's meant to be won, as any tournament is. It's a competetive environment, and the rules should follow suit.

I'm so glad I don't live in your world, I've brought more experimental decks to tournies than working decks(proven and tried)

Quote

By your statement, I could not even test my decks without ripping cards.
Just one card, Haman's Plot. I would sure hope you don't rip other cards.

Paging Orangebus

Honestly, Double standards are no fun, and as much as I love super combos beating me senseless (yes, If you beat me with something I've never seen before, I enjoy it cuz I learneded) butt the most enfuriating(sp?) thing to me in online play is someone who can beat my deck because he can 'rip' an online card without ripping a real one, making it have no consequences for a super card. Its like saying I can play wickedness removed, without removing it. Anyways /endrant

lightningninja · « **Reply #1 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:21:18 PM »

Yes, rip it. It's no different than not removing wickedness removed.

Rubber band warrior · « **Reply #2 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:34:56 PM »

Except in this case, you'd be depriving a brother (assuming, not a big jump since it's a Christian based card game) of soemthing worth a few bucks. What would you rather have somebody do for you in a pick up game-tear your $3 in half, or just tell you to remove it from the game?

lightningninja · « **Reply #3 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:45:51 PM »

Rip it. I didn't make the rules. I never would have put that clause on the end. But since they did... it's a RULE! You HAVE to uphold it.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #4 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:01:55 PM »

Why? It is a rule that when you play a dom, you MUST choose a target. However, in a friendly game, you normally allow the player to take it back. Using your logic, ALL games must be played with ALL tournament rules.

Quote from: Rubber band warrior on February 11, 2009, 07:34:56 PM

Except in this case, you'd be depriving a brother (assuming, not a big jump since it's a Christian based card game) of soemthing worth a few bucks. What would you rather have somebody do for you in a pick up game-tear your $3 in half, or just tell you to remove it from the game?

I like to remove it from the game with Cov w/ Eden up. =D

lightningninja · « **Reply #5 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:03:13 PM »

Yes... I always play by the rules with friends, especially with cards like HP.

Red · « **Reply #6 on:** February 11, 2009, 08:52:37 PM »

guys the online games you CAN"T RIP IT so knock IT OFF!

Red · « **Reply #7 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:12:28 PM »

DUDE YOU ARE SO ANTI HP SOME LIKE ME DON"T HAVE HP SIDES I DON"T HAVE ONE

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #8 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:16:15 PM »

You don't make people rip HP when they're playing an exhibition game with you to test their decks. This is the same thing. There's no prize, it's not an official tournament, and most people (including myself) are playing because of the opportunity to play people better than they are and practice with their decks. As such, HP shouldn't have to be ripped.

Further, we already voted on this and decided, overwhelmingly, to allow HP in the SOT. I don't understand why we're having this discussion again.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #9 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:52:35 PM »

Quote from: RED on February 11, 2009, 09:12:28 PM

DUDE YOU ARE SO ANTI HP SOME LIKE ME DON"T HAVE HP SIDES I DON"T HAVE ONE

then don't use it. simple as that. Yes online tournaments don't require (sometimes) that you own a card which is nice.

Quote from: Tsavong Lah on February 11, 2009, 09:16:15 PM

You don't make people rip HP when they're playing an exhibition game with you to test their decks. This is the same thing. There's no prize, it's not an official tournament, and most people (including myself) are playing because of the opportunity to play people better than they are and practice with their decks. As such, HP shouldn't have to be ripped.

Further, we already voted on this and decided, overwhelmingly, to allow HP in the SOT. I don't understand why we're having this discussion again.

ok so whenever a ruling is made, no matter how wrong it is because its an older ruling, we shouldn't change it to fix the rules? thats logic won't get us anywhere, if its been brought up again its usually because its a valid concern.

Yes they are playing to get better, I understand that. But how is spamming a card you should of ripped because your deck 'has it' every game gonna teach you that you can't rely on that card? its not. It just teaches bad practices. You can't rely on hp every game in a tournament (which this is a tournament, even if it is for fun) why should you be able to do it here? Anyone who knows me, knows I'm not big on oh noes its serious but how can one test out a deck seriously when someone can just spam hp every game you play against them? People online (As far as I can see) will use hp without a second thought while someone using it irl will think because they WILL lose a card. Why deprive the game of what was put into it? Its like if you were going to play anb, you are going to consider what you are going to lose territory wise before slapping it down. But unlike anb, hp has no drawback online.

Tsavong Lah · « **Reply #10 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:09:15 PM »

Quote

ok so whenever a ruling is made, no matter how wrong it is because its an older ruling, we shouldn't change it to fix the rules? thats logic won't get us anywhere, if its been brought up again its usually because its a valid concern.

That's obviously not what I'm saying, and is a completely different topic. Everyone who is currently playing in the tournament, with the exception of Sean and a few others who appear to not care at all about this discussion, has already voted on the topic. The majority is, and was, clearly in favor or HP in this tournament, and so I don't see what the point of voting once again is.

Quote

Yes they are playing to get better, I understand that. But how is spamming a card you should of ripped because your deck 'has it' every game gonna teach you that you can't rely on that card? its not. It just teaches bad practices.

Deck spamming? How many people, really, have you seen playing HP in this tournament so far? I have seen exactly one, and it was a dedicated brown deck. This argument seems irrelevant to me, because nobody's doing it.

Quote

You can't rely on hp every game in a tournament (which this is a tournament, even if it is for fun) why should you be able to do it here? Anyone who knows me, knows I'm not big on oh noes its serious but how can one test out a deck seriously when someone can just spam hp every game you play against them? People online (As far as I can see) will use hp without a second thought while someone using it irl will think because they WILL lose a card. Why deprive the game of what was put into it? Its like if you were going to play anb, you are going to consider what you are going to lose territory wise before slapping it down. But unlike anb, hp has no drawback online.

That's still beside the point. Drawback or no drawback, people should have the opportunity to play decks with the express intention of learning the game better in this type of tournament.

Gabe · « **Reply #11 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:21:35 PM »

I'm so glad that all this whining

and complaining

got moved to it's own thread. Thank you, RR!

MichaelHue · « **Reply #12 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:49:17 PM »

I personally don't think that this needs a rule for an online tournament. I think if a player intends to use Haman's Plot in a competitive game, they should be prepared to rip it. If they aren't comfortable with that, they should ask their opponent before the game starts.

I personally would never make anyone rip a Haman's Plot in anything other than a real tournament, but that's just my opinion on the matter. It's a rule, and bending it let my opponent keep a useful card doesn't bother me, but people wanting to use the card should be prepared to follow it. In anything but a friendly game, you should rip Haman's Plot, unless your opponent is ok with you not ripping it.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** February 11, 2009, 11:51:32 PM »

I agree with Tsavong that the current members of the tourney voted to allow HP to be used without a real card being torn. If you want to change the rules, then I would suggest asking SS for a re-vote at the start of the next round with the players in that round.

I agree with Sir Nobody that allowing people to play HP in their deck is the best way to test your deck against a real tournament experience. I don't like seeing HP in my opponent's deck, and I usually don't put it in mine. However, if I want to win a big tournament, then I better be able to beat a deck with HP in it. And as for someone playing it every round when they couldn't do that in a regular tournament, that is really only hurting themselves. That might mean that I would have to face a HP every round, but that could actually happen in a tournament, so it is good practice for me. But they will not be able to really play it every round in a tournament so they will not be getting as good practice.

I agree with Gabe that I'm glad this whole discussion got moved to a separate thread.

lightningninja · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2009, 12:12:56 AM »

This is how I think we should do it, to be fair to both players: Both players must agree that it isn't shady to use, and both agree that it is fair game.

Rubber band warrior · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2009, 02:06:11 PM »

For an online tournament, could you just assume that players are allowed to check in either 2-3 decks (depends on the number of rounds), and say that they're only allowed to use that number of Haman's Plots?

I realize I don't know anything about Substitute Online Tournament, and I don't think that idea would have worked with Jacob's Ladder due to the ongoing, tournament that never ends nature of the thing, but if you're playing like a real tournament, with a specified number of rounds per amount of time (one month long tournament, round robin), then I think that allowing a player only a certain amount of uses of a Haman's Plot would be the fairest thing to do.

michael/michaelssword · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2009, 06:26:01 PM »

I think it should stay..It gets removed from the game what more do you want!?! and asking beforehand is like sayinghey would you like toplay esther or not?It gives away your defense

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2009, 07:28:39 PM »

I'm an advocater of a new HP with a "remove from game" ability instead - a UR version. I mean, come on; Brown hardly has anything else going for it!

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2009, 11:11:08 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 12, 2009, 07:28:39 PM

I'm an advocater of a new HP with a "remove from game" ability instead - a UR version. I mean, come on; Brown hardly has anything else going for it!

HA. Don't worry, it will be fine. =D

amelo · « **Reply #19 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:26:42 PM »

lol, yes it will

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #20 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:37:52 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on February 12, 2009, 07:28:39 PM

I'm an advocater of a new HP with a "remove from game" ability instead - a UR version. I mean, come on; Brown hardly has anything else going for it!

O_o have you played vs brown? its insanely powerful.

Also I have played 3 times vs an HP (diff games each time) and it always leaves my gut turning. I use brown and don't use HP because I refuse to rip it, that includes online :-p I know people who use HP in online that wouldn't even consider it in IRL. I completely agree with prof that it is great training. I'm fine with the tournament, I still play, I just really hate seeing HP used as if it was a normal battle winner.

*To people who thanked me*
Its no problem, I rather have the discussion here than the tournament thread. It is just something that urks me. (And in type nw cost me a game

)

777Godspeed · « **Reply #21 on:** February 13, 2009, 08:09:57 PM »

It seems to me that some players aren't understanding the original intent of the SOT (Substitute Online Tournament, ie. Not Officially Sanctioned) with emphasis on the Substitute. This is not replacing Jacob's Ladder (Officially Sanctioned) in anyway. The Ladder was not active and SS thought is would be fun to have something going in the meantime, with some looser rules. There were no prizes in the beginning and if prizes are causing the argument of how "Official" this tournament is and leading to an HP supercard blowout, I would suggest "No Prizes". They were offered outta someones pocket as an incentive to attract more players, but not in anyway to imply "Official" anything. I am saddened to see where this has gone over one lousy card. Isn't this game for FUN and FELLOWSHIP? then why all the quibbling? This enviroment was intended to promote players to play what they had designed, come up with new ideas, improve on ideas, but all in all to have fun with RTS. There was nothing to imply that you could only use cards you owned, Haman's Plot was voted on and agreed to be used "UNRIPPED" in this Substitute Online Tournament (ie: Unofficial) for players new and old, skilled and unskilled, competitive or non-competitive. How would many newer players feel if they didn't have/couldn't afford the Uber cards that some have said you had to own in order to use them on RTS? Nonesense. In this FUN tournament, any player should be able to use any legal Redemption card in RTS to build his or her deck. This may be the only time for them to be able to use the so-called Super cards at this time in their Redemption playing career. There are future Champions floating around here, so let them indulge in an Unofficlal SOT and use/build whatever is legal for them to use.
I had planned on rejoining the SOT, but I'm rethinking that decision at this point. Everyone has beaten their opinion into the ground and it now is only tiresome to read. SS came up with the SOT and it is his to run. I support SS in all that he is doing to promote Redemption through the SOT.

Godspeed,
Mike

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2009, 01:42:02 PM »

Fact: Being fair to all = Unfair to fun and fellowship. Oh wells. I shall accept my lot in life and by that... welll you'll see.

Gabe · « **Reply #23 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:55:12 PM »

For the new Official Online Tournament I think it's appropriate that if you play a Haman's Plot you must rip an untorn Haman's Plot in half as the card states.

The reason for the change of heart is that this is now official, sponsored by Cactus Games, with prizes and RNRS points. I expect that we should be required to follow all official rules.

For the record I still don't feel that people should have to rip a HP in unofficial, casual or test games.

Gabe

Rubber band warrior · « **Reply #24 on:** March 05, 2009, 06:56:06 PM »

I agree with Gabe on this, though my position on non tournament games is that it should not need to be ripped.

News:

Author Topic: HP? RIPPED FOR ONLINE? (Continued) (Read 20011 times)

michael/michaelssword