Author Topic: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued? (Read 2360 times)

Reth · « **on:** July 25, 2020, 02:54:17 PM »

Hi there,

just out of curiosity and with the great success in getting complexity reduced quite a bit by removing cascading negates I wonder whether efforts will continue to make the game rules even more intuitive and less complex to lower the hurdles for beginners/newcomers?

Would love to see these efforts to be continued!

Thanks a lot to all involved developing and improving our game!

Kind Regards

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2020, 04:06:57 PM »

Set rotation would eliminate a lot of old cards with erratas and outdated wording.

Watchman · « **Reply #2 on:** July 25, 2020, 07:09:20 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on July 25, 2020, 04:06:57 PM

Set rotation would eliminate a lot of old cards with erratas and outdated wording.

I don’t believe that’s what he’s referring to. In fact, the older cards actually help newer players as they have more clarifying wording compared to contemporary cards.

@Reth - what specifically were you thinking needs to be changed/improved rules and abilities-wise to help newer players?

Red Wing · « **Reply #3 on:** July 25, 2020, 07:35:06 PM »

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 07:09:20 PM

Quote from: Red Wing on July 25, 2020, 04:06:57 PM
Set rotation would eliminate a lot of old cards with erratas and outdated wording.

I don’t believe that’s what he’s referring to. In fact, the older cards actually help newer players as they have more clarifying wording compared to contemporary cards.

@Reth - what specifically were you thinking needs to be changed/improved rules and abilities-wise to help newer players?

Clarifying text just causes more confusion in my experience. But I was referring more to how older cards don't have standardized wording. For example, new players have to memorize like four different pseudonyms for ignore.

Reth · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2020, 08:06:19 PM »

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 07:09:20 PM

@Reth - what specifically were you thinking needs to be changed/improved rules and abilities-wise to help newer players?

ATM nothing specifically. But when playing games there are always lots of questions coming up (ruling board and discord are full of them) and if I look into the REG and ORDIR it shows a quite huge and complex set of topics, rules and regulations which a player needs to know in order to play regular on the one hand and in order to make the right decisions and choices on the other hand.

Some examples are: When you have a card like Horses active on an EC like The Rabshakeh (LoC): In which order do abilities activate/interrupt each other and in which point of time does opponent get SI when The Rabshakeh targets the only Hero in battle (and has hand protection so cannot use the instead part).

Or the (re)activation or non-(re)activation of abilities when e.g. CwD was active and gets deactivated: Do e.g. Lost Souls in territroy like Distressed become active again (IMO it would not) or not? If they become active again and opponent has e.g. CoW Moses in Territory what happens then - which one does work and why (since CoW Moses also becomes active again)?

So I am referring to examples likes these and there are lots more (see rulings boards and discord) which makes it hard for beginners, new comers etc. to get into competitive play more easily.

Watchman · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2020, 10:29:26 PM »

Quote from: Red Wing on July 25, 2020, 07:35:06 PM

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 07:09:20 PM
Quote from: Red Wing on July 25, 2020, 04:06:57 PM
Set rotation would eliminate a lot of old cards with erratas and outdated wording.

I don’t believe that’s what he’s referring to. In fact, the older cards actually help newer players as they have more clarifying wording compared to contemporary cards.

@Reth - what specifically were you thinking needs to be changed/improved rules and abilities-wise to help newer players?

Clarifying text just causes more confusion in my experience. But I was referring more to how older cards don't have standardized wording. For example, new players have to memorize like four different pseudonyms for ignore.

I actually feel there’s more confusion with some current wording, like Take meaning two completely different things, and CtB abilities are CBI after the initial character is presented (but CBI isn’t spelled out at all except in the REG in one sentence), or “in battle” vs “during battle” vs “field of battle.” I agree there are old words that now mean ignore (like one part of HHI), but that wasn’t changed until later to fit Ignore (from my understanding).

@Reth I agree that there are definitely some abilities/wording that are hard for a new player would understand and how card interactions work (as I exampled above). But on the other side of the coin it’s these interactions that also give the game its depth of play and strategy. I think there should be some simple one little word entries that will help clarify things, and certain abilities should be clarified, but ultimately this is a game that would still require a learning curve no matter what.

The fact of the matter a game like Redemption and certain other CCGs are really designed for those who have a mind for these kinds of complex games. Either you have a mind for it and enjoy this kind of game, or you don’t. And if you don’t, there’s always Uno, and there’s no shame in that. 😁

Reth · « **Reply #6 on:** July 26, 2020, 04:05:51 AM »

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 10:29:26 PM

The fact of the matter a game like Redemption and certain other CCGs are really designed for those who have a mind for these kinds of complex games. Either you have a mind for it and enjoy this kind of game, or you don’t. And if you don’t, there’s always Uno, and there’s no shame in that. 😁

Fully agree. But IMO there is still room for improvements that would make things easier to understand, grasp and internalise while leaving the entire interaction untouched. At least this is my feeling. E.g. play abilities are CBI which needs to be known too. But I did not yet figured out what's the reason behind? Maybe there is also things like those which can be improved.

Or the understanding of how the sequence of abilities is working in my example from above: The Rabshakeh (LoC) with Foreign Horses activated on them while this combination it but into battle and targetting the only hero there.

At least I think with removing cascading negate we took a big step into that direction and my hope is that game development will continue to improve into that direction whereever possible (don't know certain areas yet for myself) while keeping the interaction and fun Redemption provides.

Thanks again to the team!

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2020, 04:15:52 PM »

Quote from: Reth on July 25, 2020, 08:06:19 PM

Or the (re)activation or non-(re)activation of abilities when e.g. CwD was active and gets deactivated: Do e.g. Lost Souls in territroy like Distressed become active again (IMO it would not) or not? If they become active again and opponent has e.g. CoW Moses in Territory what happens then - which one does work and why (since CoW Moses also becomes active again)?

Second question first, because it's easier - CwD doesn't negate Distressed, so Distressed is active alongside CwD, so Distressed would continue negating Moses. If something was negating both Moses and Distressed (like another Moses), they would activate "at the same time", but I think priority is given to whichever player has higher Action Priority.

Quote from: Reth on July 25, 2020, 08:06:19 PM

Some examples are: When you have a card like Horses active on an EC like The Rabshakeh (LoC): In which order do abilities activate/interrupt each other and in which point of time does opponent get SI when The Rabshakeh targets the only Hero in battle (and has hand protection so cannot use the instead part).

1. The ability activation order specifies how multiple cards activate when they enter battle - the character activates before the weapon, but can't bring a new character into battle until after the weapon activates.
2. An instead always tries to insert before the ability completes.
3. SI happens as the ability completes.

So Rabshakeh targets a card for underdeck, the opponent can instead (or not - either because they can't or they don't want to), then SI happens before the ability moves on.

It gets complex from there, depending on what the opponent does in SI.
If The Rabshakeh gets SI, the opponent has to resolve the SI. If The Rabshakeh remains in battle, the equip/take and Horses activate after that SI.
If the Rabshakeh doesn't get SI, the equip/take can activate if he wasn't fully negated (i.e., the negate only targeted the underdeck, not the whole card), then Horses can activate, which would interrupt the negate if it's targetable by the ITB, then you need to either prevent or remove the negate before The Rabshakeh's underdeck would reactivate.

Reth · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2020, 12:02:43 PM »

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 10:29:26 PM

I actually feel there’s more confusion with some current wording, like Take meaning two completely different things, and CtB abilities are CBI after the initial character is presented (but CBI isn’t spelled out at all except in the REG in one sentence), or “in battle” vs “during battle” vs “field of battle.” I agree there are old words that now mean ignore (like one part of HHI), but that wasn’t changed until later to fit Ignore (from my understanding).

Also agree here. Same for play abilities and them being CBI - this is also just stated in the REG.

Quote from: Watchman on July 25, 2020, 10:29:26 PM

@Reth I agree that there are definitely some abilities/wording that are hard for a new player would understand and how card interactions work (as I exampled above). But on the other side of the coin it’s these interactions that also give the game its depth of play and strategy. I think there should be some simple one little word entries that will help clarify things, and certain abilities should be clarified, but ultimately this is a game that would still require a learning curve no matter what.

The fact of the matter a game like Redemption and certain other CCGs are really designed for those who have a mind for these kinds of complex games. Either you have a mind for it and enjoy this kind of game, or you don’t. And if you don’t, there’s always Uno, and there’s no shame in that. 😁

I also agree on that maybe except one part: Complex games and complex rules/guides etc. does not necessarily have to be interdependent in my opinion. In fact it would be great to have that kind of games creating complex situations and complex scenarios/matches etc. while providing an "as simple as possible" (maybe the better meaning for ASAP

) ruleset to resolve these kind of complex scenarios (this was originally not my idea/opinion/statement - but I really like it and totally agree with it!)!

IMHO for redemption we should further try to strife for this kind of setup: Complexity provided by the game and possibly simplest rule set to deal with it. I know that this is not an easy task and also will not happen "over night" (as we literally say here) - I do not even know how this could be tackled. But I am sure this would make entry into the game much more easy while still providing great fascination. Maybe we have the chance to improve here over time - also with set rotation if it might/will come...

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Author Topic: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued? (Read 2360 times)

Reth

Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Red Wing

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Watchman

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Red Wing

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Reth

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Watchman

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Reth

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

RedemptionAggie

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?

Reth

Re: Will the achievements to make the rulings easier be continued?