Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Could we re-open the ruling on New Jerusalem's "simultaneous" clause?
I did a search on the forums, but didnt see much in recent threads. I'm not trying to be silly; i'm curious if changes to the game can afford a change to this ruling (it's happened before).

I may be wrong, but it seemed that the main thrust to change New Jerusalem's ruling from playing with anyone's SoG to only yours was because of the oppressions of 2/3 Liner and choking your land of bondage. If you consider the Lost Souls errata, the rescuing your own LS change, and how the game has refined "timing" so much better in recent years, the case could be made to re-examine a rule change for NJ.

"Simultaneous" simply means "during the same time," but it does not require the starts and finishes to be at the same time. I could say that the "Superbowl" is playing simultaneously as "The Office" even if the "Superbowl" started at 5:00pm and "The Office" at 6:00pm.

There are already situations that demonstrate this to a degree

Spoiler (hover to show)

If I have a "Dominant-shuffle" LS and the "Shuffle" LS, my opponent can play both SoG and NJ, but after they rescue the Shuffle with SoG, NJ cannot rescue the Dominant shuffle as it inserted itself inside a "simultaneous" play with two abilities trying to resolve.

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One may interpret the "simultaneous" clause from NJ to do just that and not be conditional on the source or the time, just as long as it happens with the SoG. Because, NJ says "simultaneous" it gives (not blocks) me the ability to play with anyone's SoG. The current ruling is effectively: "Play NJ in the same moment when you play SoG."

I think that changing this back to being truly simultaneous and not "same moment" would have the following positive ramifications (no particular order):
1) Bring a healthy mix to the meta by giving people more options
2) not oppressive at all because you can no longer rescue your own lost souls with dominants
3) Fun-level (it was always extremely fun surprising your opponent with a NJ. This was a cool interaction with dominants that we dont get to have anymore - a pseudo-interrupt).
4) This help some people who cannot afford TSC to be a little more competitive.

In short, i dont see a downside, and for the rule-conscious, it is very easy to interpret "simultaneous" as any time any SoG is being played, because as stated above, it doesnt have to start or end at the same time to be simultaneous.

Maybe codify "simultaneously" in the rules or simply errata NJ to work as intended.   

Changing "simultaneously" to mean "in the same phase" sounds Interesting. 

I think I see a solution.  One of the overarching rules in Redemption is that when a special ability is being carried out, no other abilities can activate - even abilities that were triggered by the card that is being carried out must wait until the card is carried out.  (There are a few exceptions, like Instead abilities, but they don't matter for the sake of this discussion.)

NJ is unique in that it has the phrase "Play this card simultaneously..." in it.  I think a simple game rule about the word "Simultaneously", or cards with abilities that allow them to be played simultaneously with other cards, is all we need. 

Simply make the definition of "Simultaneously" something similar to this:

"When a card has an ability that allows it to be played simultaneously with another card, and that other card is played, the card with the simultaneous ability may be played immediately before the triggering card is activated.  The simultaneous ability is now pending, but it cannot activate while the first card is completing.  The triggering card is then carried out, and the simultaneous card will activate once the triggering card has completed."

I see 2 major benefits:

1. NJ becomes playable.
2. It opens up "Simultaneous" abilities for future cards.  These have never been explored due to the headaches caused by NJ in the past.  If we codify simple and logical rules for "simultaneous", I think we just created a new keyword   

#CrowdsChoice


http://www.cactusforums.com/new-card-ideas/new-dominant-idea-crowd's-choice/msg575179/#msg575179

I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities? I suppose maybe TC placed enhancements (i.e. Gam's Speech, Treasures of War, Paying Taxes et al)?

Dom initiative kinda solves your first point. Player A gets to play a dom first. If the game doesn't end the it goes in order of who asked for dom int first.

Edit: Assuming its Player A's turn

Well one only Dom so far has simultaneously as part of the ability. I just wouldn't print anymore doms like that. 

Well one only Dom so far has simultaneously as part of the ability. I just wouldn't print anymore doms like that. 

Which then brings us back to the "one ruling for one card" issue 

Believe me, I'm one of the Elders who wants to see NJ playable again, but I don't want us to take one step forward and two steps back. 

I agree, and I'm definitely not trying to shoot this idea down. As Gabe mentioned earlier, we did have extensive discussion on this idea so I'm just sharing some of the points/issues that came up then.

One idea we didn't really consider was an errata--with the potential of a future set rotation and the ability to reprint New Jerusalem on the new card face, perhaps that is a direction to consider. How should an errata-ed NJ be worded?

Errata to say: if SoG was played this phase, you may rescue a LS

I like where your idea is going though I just have two thoughts.

--We'll still have conflicts such as player A using SoG to rescue one LS and then players B and C both trying to play New Jerusalem to rescue the only other LS on the table (after SoG resolves).

--What other card types besides dominants would even work as "simultaneously" abilities? I suppose maybe TC placed enhancements (i.e. Gam's Speech, Treasures of War, Paying Taxes et al)?

similar to what has been shared:
If Josh's "rule" suffices as a temporary starting point, then Player A plays SoG, both Players B and C (up to N) immediately have a "simultaneous" trigger to play NJ, with player's B adding then player's C adding. Once all cards have been added, follow normal resolution rules with multiple abilities trying to resolve at once.

There has been some great discussion, guys! thanks so much for the input!

"May play with SoG simultaneously, if multiple players are playing simultaneously, the one who can do the most back flips gets to play the card first."

Add some athletic ability to the game!  This would of coarse always count me out from playing NJ first as well.

Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

There are several cards in the game that can search for NJ, while nothing that searches for TSC.  Plus not everyone can afford TSC, while NJ is widely available.  Making NJ better gives people choice and helps younger/poorer players be competitive. 

Quote from: YeshuaIsLord

Could someone explain the issue with few words in a simplified manner?
What's even the point of NJ now that we have TSC? There is no reason for choosing NJ over TSC or am I mistaken? I think that's pretty sad that NJ became so much weaker..

About the only negative to TSC is that it can be stopped/hindered by anti-search abilities like Hezekiah's Signet Ring. New Jerusalem was boosted somewhat in the Revelation of John set by New Jerusalem/Bride of Christ, One of Seven, and The Woman with Child (which also boosts TSC), but it definitely is much weaker than TSC as we all know. I agree that it is sad and I'm definitely hoping that something will be done through this thread! 

I'm also all for nerfing TSC, but sadly, boosting NJ is not the best way to go about that. 

Now, if TSC gets an errata where it can't be in the same deck as SoG (instead of NJ), and NJ can be played with other players' SoGs...  That would be more interesting