Author Topic: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)  (Read 21878 times)

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2013, 04:14:00 PM »
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Id say no because your other deck is still legal. I'm not the final authority though

Chris

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2013, 04:32:56 PM »
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If I only have one legal deck at the point that Top Cut begins?

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 05:28:24 PM »
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If I only have one legal deck at the point that Top Cut begins?

Then I would say you'd be forced to use that one.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2013, 10:09:44 PM »
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Hey,

I have a couple questions about how timeouts will be handled in the Top Cut rounds.

If a game times out with one player "winning at time out" and one player "losing at timeout" that will be treated as a full win and full loss correct?

If a game times out in a 4-4 tie and neither player is able to rescue additional lost souls even with extra rounds how will that game be handled?

If a game times out in a 4-4 tie and both players make a rescue in the first "extra inning" round does the player who got to 5 first win, or are they then tied at 5-5 and play a second "extra inning" round to break the 5-5 tie?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2013, 10:29:35 PM »
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Hey,

I have a couple questions about how timeouts will be handled in the Top Cut rounds.

If a game times out with one player "winning at time out" and one player "losing at timeout" that will be treated as a full win and full loss correct?

If a game times out in a 4-4 tie and neither player is able to rescue additional lost souls even with extra rounds how will that game be handled?

If a game times out in a 4-4 tie and both players make a rescue in the first "extra inning" round does the player who got to 5 first win, or are they then tied at 5-5 and play a second "extra inning" round to break the 5-5 tie?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

1. Yes. Player winning at time wins.

2. Great question. Don't let it happen? I'm not sure there is a fair and equitable way to handle this situation. Feel free to offer suggestions to myself/Roy if your deck is in danger of this occurring. I even played a lock deck at States and I don't see this happening.

3. You'd keep playing to break the tie.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2013, 11:27:48 PM »
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3. I'm not sure that answered Tim's question. The way I'm reading the tie breaker rules (and how its handled in most other CCGs) is the first player to break the tie wins. In Tim's example, the first player to win another Lost Soul would win the game; there would be no further chance to tie the game back up.

Quote
If there is a tie at time in the Top Cut, players play sequential rounds (each player taking a turn) until one player has taken a lead.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2013, 11:29:34 PM »
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That's poor writing on my part, sorry. The each player taking a turn thing is meant to say it's like extra innings in baseball. Each player gets a turn to rescue. I tried to use the turn and round terminology.

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #32 on: August 01, 2013, 11:32:30 PM »
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Then that still creates a scenario where its possible both players can still be tied after all Lost Souls are exhausted from play.
"If it weren't for people with bad decision making skills, I'd have to get a real job." - Reynad

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2013, 11:46:35 PM »
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Then that still creates a scenario where its possible both players can still be tied after all Lost Souls are exhausted from play.

Fair point. I'll discuss that with Roy.

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #34 on: August 02, 2013, 12:15:16 AM »
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Then that still creates a scenario where its possible both players can still be tied after all Lost Souls are exhausted from play.
1 - this seems VERY unlikely

2 - this is better than saying the first person to take a LS wins.  No one wants the most important games of the tournament to be determined by a coin flip.

Offline SirNobody

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #35 on: August 02, 2013, 12:44:45 AM »
+3
Hey,

I think a game that is tied 4-4 should be sudden death (next soul wins).  That's the way it is before the time limit I don't see a reason to change it after.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Offline Master KChief

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #36 on: August 02, 2013, 01:33:38 AM »
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Then that still creates a scenario where its possible both players can still be tied after all Lost Souls are exhausted from play.
1 - this seems VERY unlikely

Seems? Or actually is? Since the scenario exists regardless of how unlikely you think it is, the system needs a better remedy than affording players an extra turn to 'catch up' to the leading player, creating a cyclic nature further perpetuating the tie.

Quote
2 - this is better than saying the first person to take a LS wins.  No one wants the most important games of the tournament to be determined by a coin flip.

I find this comment highly ironic coming from a player that touts defense as much as he does.
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Offline EmJayBee83

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #37 on: August 02, 2013, 07:27:11 AM »
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That's poor writing on my part, sorry. The each player taking a turn thing is meant to say it's like extra innings in baseball. Each player gets a turn to rescue. I tried to use the turn and round terminology.
I think you should say it is like the overtime rules in college Football.  That way when someone compares it to professional football...

I think a game that is tied 4-4 should be sudden death (next soul wins).

...we have one consistent set of analogies to juggle in our minds. (Otherwise you have a bird in the hand gathering no moss sort of situation. ;) )

Just a suggestion.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2013, 11:27:37 AM »
+1
Maybe we should just have the panel of judges and/or redemption MetaGaming hosts make an informed decision on who they feel would win

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2013, 11:35:29 AM »
+2
Maybe we should just have the panel of judges and/or redemption MetaGaming hosts make an informed decision on who they feel would win

That would be hilarious if you and Westy were matched up in a Top Cut round that was tied at time-out...
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #40 on: August 02, 2013, 12:45:17 PM »
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I'd get the win because I built the key points of our deck.

/shotsfired

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2013, 02:13:43 PM »
+1
I'd get the win because I built the key points of our deck.

/shotsfired
I'm not going to do this over the internet. You, me, top cut, Friday night, in front of all the internet. It's on.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2013, 03:47:05 PM »
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Top 2. It's a date.

Offline Gabe

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2013, 04:39:04 PM »
+6
Top 2. It's a date.

If this happens I will eat my trophies. All of them. ::)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 04:53:05 PM by Gabe »
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Offline Red Dragon Thorn

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2013, 05:41:54 PM »
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Top 2. It's a date.

If this happens I will eat my trophies. All of them. ::)

Better buy some Tums, you know, just in case
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2013, 05:56:37 PM »
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Top 2. It's a date.
If this happens I will eat my trophies. All of them. ::)
That's a decently risky call considering I'd put the chances of Alex and Westy meeting up in the final to be somewhere about 1:675.  That's not very likely, but MUCH more likely than a lot of other things (winning the lottery, getting hit by lightning, etc.)

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2014, 01:05:56 PM »
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I don't like the idea of a Swiss style top cut. I mean for my situation I don't wanna go to nationals and lose and be eliminated from the first round and the sit out for the rest of the tournament. To be honest, eleminations take the fun out of the tournament. I think Swiss style should be kept as it always had been for almost twenty years
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Offline _JM_

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2014, 01:19:13 PM »
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I don't like the idea of a Swiss style top cut. I mean for my situation I don't wanna go to nationals and lose and be eliminated from the first round and the sit out for the rest of the tournament. To be honest, eleminations take the fun out of the tournament. I think Swiss style should be kept as it always had been for almost twenty years

That's not how top cut works.  Everybody entered in the field plays a set number of rounds (I think it's been at least six for both Nats that have employed T1-2P top cut).  Win, lose, or draw doesn't matter.  You still play all of those rounds before the actual cut is made.  And it's quite possible to get into the top cut group with a loss.  Even two, depending on how tiebreakers and whatnot break down.  Only after all Swiss rounds are finished is a cut made and single elimination matches for the top 8 begin.

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2014, 02:24:05 PM »
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It's worth pointing out that by and large, most of the people who have played in T12P the last two years came away with positive impressions of top cut. I was especially pleased to find out that Chris Bany, who staunchly opposed the introduction of cutting prior to New York, became a big believer in it that year, which is the main reason he chose to implement it this year in MN. We actually cut at seven rounds both years, though I believe it should be smaller, especially considering what happened to Jerome this last tournament (he was the last undefeated player, took two hard losses, and ultimately didn't cut). Cutting after six rounds, to me, is the sweet spot, and I would like to see it implemented in future tournaments.

This year was especially weird because the field wasn't nearly as stacked as normal (missing people like Gabe, Greeson, Townsend, Martin, Westy, and Alex), leaving only a handful of people with any kind of legitimate record (Earley, Nathan, Underwood, Connor, Josiah [who didn't even cut], and myself) to compete. The drama in the later rounds certainly doesn't help the perception that this year felt a little off, but that has nothing to do with top cut, and had to do with the people who ended up making it (or rather, who didn't).

Offline Red

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Re: Nationals Top Cut Rules (Type 1 2-Player ONLY)
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2014, 06:23:39 PM »
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It's worth pointing out that by and large, most of the people who have played in T12P the last two years came away with positive impressions of top cut. I was especially pleased to find out that Chris Bany, who staunchly opposed the introduction of cutting prior to New York, became a big believer in it that year, which is the main reason he chose to implement it this year in MN. We actually cut at seven rounds both years, though I believe it should be smaller, especially considering what happened to Jerome this last tournament (he was the last undefeated player, took two hard losses, and ultimately didn't cut). Cutting after six rounds, to me, is the sweet spot, and I would like to see it implemented in future tournaments.

This year was especially weird because the field wasn't nearly as stacked as normal (missing people like Gabe, Greeson, Townsend, Martin, Westy, and Alex), leaving only a handful of people with any kind of legitimate record (Earley, Nathan, Underwood, Connor, Josiah [who didn't even cut], and myself) to compete. The drama in the later rounds certainly doesn't help the perception that this year felt a little off, but that has nothing to do with top cut, and had to do with the people who ended up making it (or rather, who didn't).
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